Independence SE Poll

[Mikie711]

Its a good argument for having more share of money, but wish SNP would get facts right

em, wasn't written by the SNP.

[Mikie711]

Re the NHS privatisation thing. Friend of my wife has just enjoyed a 2 day says in a private hospital as her local hospital couldn't remove her gallbladder in time. She paid not a penny and it was all paid for by the NHS. She was fair chuffed as she got seen quickly and got great treatment.

Makes my blood boil.... These tories privatising the NHS.

Sorry? What's that? She lives in Aberdeen and heath care is devolved...... Oh this is awkward.

This isnt spin, it's not media bias it's a real life lass who's met some of you at Kames and has had NHS treatment subbed out to a private company.

Whether this is the right or wrong thing to do is up for debate but don't kid yourself that a yes vote stops private companies doing the work of the NHS.

The NHS privatisation and the NHS using private services to speed up treatment are two entirely different things. The NHS have, for years used private health care to supplement NHS health care. My wife used to see a private consultant regularly when she was receiving treatment, because they didn't have a specialist locally at the time, that was 20 odd years ago. The use of private care as part of your NHS cover isn't new. The fact they did it because they couldn't operate on your friend in time surely isn't a bad thing.

[Lazydonkey]

I'm not debating whether it's a good or bad thing, What I'm saying is that it flies in the face of the constant "Westminster are privatising our NHS" cries from the yes campaign.

When you hear "yes" talk there are no caveats it's just blanket statements like "carved up and sold to the higher bidder"......I'm not sure if the fact that NHS Scotland paid BMI healthcare so their waiting list stats looked good sits comfortably with that message.


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[Corranga]

The big difference in that scenario mike is that youre being told what 'will' happen. That's something to base your vote on. With the current debate, neither side knows what 'will' happen therefore, for me the only thing I can base my vote on is what we have now versus a total unknown!

This gets to me too, I've seen far too many people quoiting the white parer (not necessarily here) as the truth. They clearly didn't read the first half dozen or so pages which clearly state it is a guide as to what the current Scottish Government will take to Westminster as negotiation points etc. Then it becomes a manifesto for what will happen if the current Scottish Government retains 'the house' after the 2016 election in the even of a Yes vote (ie, a positive result for them in 2 polls).

So, the issue of course is that the Yes side can't actually talk about what will happen, only what can and might happen.
The No side have swayed away from talking about what will happen if we remain together presumable as all it would do is load the Yes cannon - for example:
'No' say they will fully devolve pigeons rights
Yes respond that they will devolve EVERYTHING and make sure that everyone has 10 pigeons to replace the Tory privatised Royal Mail!
(I'm sure they wouldn't say that, but hopefully you get the idea..!)

[j2 lot]

Where am I expected to keep 10 pigeons, and what if they fight with the Unicorns Alex keeps promising!!

[Rosssco]

That's because most nationalists (in general) see the world in black and white (which wouldn't sell as well), where as we all know that's not reality.

I'm not debating whether it's a good or bad thing, What I'm saying is that it flies in the face of the constant "Westminster are privatising our NHS" cries from the yes campaign.

When you hear "yes" talk there are no caveats it's just blanket statements like "carved up and sold to the higher bidder"......I'm not sure if the fact that NHS Scotland paid BMI healthcare so their waiting list stats looked good sits comfortably with that message.


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[woody]

Have seen this posted quite a few times now, but take issue with a number of the assertions. I want to believe Scotland can be independent (in fact I do) I just can't agree with the arguments and direction of the Yes campaign and the Yes supporters. All this does is push me further away, a recurring situation during the campaign.

-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf
Not sure I agree geographical location is an issue & Scottish MPs have historically been higher proportionally than the population. If it was an issue, I'd be far more likely to vote Yes if the Parliament was in Glasgow.
-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.
In a UK general election? Can't quite get my head around this one. Even if you do see it as an issue, Labiour were in for 13 years largerly on the back of the Scottish vote.
-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.
They do. No argument. As are revenues in England and then they're all divided up by the Barnet formula.
-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
Have seen figures contrary to this. As with most of the financial arguments, neither sides really seems to stack up. Need to look into this further TBH.
-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.
Cannot disagree.
-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)
Depends on which figures you believe
-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy
The issue here is with first past the post; 16% of Scots voted Tory but ended up with 1.7% of the Scottish MPs. With PR, we'd have a greater pool of Tory MPs from which to join the cabinet.
-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privatise your publicly owned mail service
Having spoken to those I know who joined it late in life or have fled after joining post Uni, this is a good thing.
-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
Can't disagree. One of the most ill considered policy's I can remember.
-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.
Has it been?
-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.
Scotland's isn't. Not sure I have an issue with that anyway, most of Europe seems to cope admirably with similar set-ups.
-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.
By a Scottish born & educated PM supported by a Scottish Chancellor and a cabinet over represented by Scots
-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.
Public spending is still up
-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.
With a Scottish Chancellor for 10 + years who then became PM and put another Scotsman in charge of the money. Not to mention the Scottishness of a lot of the banks involved.
-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.
Not even remotely like my own experience with a close family member. ETA: actually, I'm quite pissed by this assertion and the use of such people to score political points.
Who in Scotland would vote for such a package?
Who would vote for that union?
So why would anyone vote to remain in such a union now?
This is about democratic ownership, social responsibility and the fact that Scotland on its own will be economically stronger from day one of independence....."
It's heavily bias.

(Mike the above isn't aimed at you, just my immediate thoughts on seeing it for a 5th time).

[j2 lot]

Well said Woody

[PhilA]

Its a good argument for having more share of money, but wish SNP would get facts right

em, wasn't written by the SNP.

ok, Yes campaign, but dont see the difference - thats like saying tory/labour/no

both opposite sides of the coin

[Peter]

I'm still undecided and actually may not now be legible to vote but it is the statements that are being aired just don't stack up. Mike, this is not meant to be a direct attack on your post but an example of the frustration that I feel due to the lack of a clear strategy on Scotland's future. If I take your reverse thinking example and apply that logic to someone who lives in Dumfriesshire as an example...

-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf
-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.

The new parliament in Edinburgh is still not on my doorstep and I have an SNP Government when I voted for Labour

-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.

Now the folks in Edinburgh get it, how is that better for Dumfriesshire?

-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn

That Edinburgh Tram system or new Forth Crossing is no use to me..

-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.

I still have Sellafield within 50 miles

-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)

I genuinely distrust these figures

-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy

Now I have to give them to Edinburgh, whats in it for me in Dumfriesshire

-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service
-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.

I guess these figures will all change again.

-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.

I don't think this is true, and if so, what's wrong with that? It works in most other countries..

-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.

I like this one.. albeit that someone needs to stick up for countries/populations that are being oppressed, would Scotland simply ignore such global issues going forwards

-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.

Something had to be done, what would Scotland have done differently, especially if the damage caused by it's Banks had to be burdened by Scotland?

-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.

What is to say that things would have ben different for Scotland. The Scottish banks were at the forefront of this problem and I feel it unlikely that they would have had tougher rules imposed on them by a Scottish regulator if it gave them an uneven global playing field to compete on?

-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.

Are they all entitled? I'm sure a good proportion are but I'll also wager that there are a few playing the system.

So some of the replies are a little tongue in cheek but the point I'm trying to make is that most are irrelevant and do nothing to sway my opinion. There is a lot of emotional crap that's been thrown about by some elements of the Yes campaign and to me it just damages the whole debate. If some of the potential new Leaders of an independent Scotland could stand up and share a vision of what Scotland would look like as an Independent country, how it would see itself in the world and what its core values would be, then I'd listen a whole lot more..

[BigD]

There is a lot of emotional crap that's been thrown about by some elements of the Yes campaign and to me it just damages the whole debate. If some of the potential new Leaders of an independent Scotland could stand up and share a vision of what Scotland would look like as an Independent country, how it would see itself in the world and what its core values would be, then I'd listen a whole lot more..

I absolutely agree, Alex Salmond is trying to guilt trip us into a Yes vote and it's having the opposite effect on me, it's spin and bullsh1t and I just can't take him anymore. The problem with doing it on an emotional level is that it can boil over into something much more vulgar.

[Shug]

There is a lot of emotional crap that's been thrown about by some elements of the Yes campaign and to me it just damages the whole debate. If some of the potential new Leaders of an independent Scotland could stand up and share a vision of what Scotland would look like as an Independent country, how it would see itself in the world and what its core values would be, then I'd listen a whole lot more..

I absolutely agree, Alex Salmond is trying to guilt trip us into a Yes vote and it's having the opposite effect on me, it's spin and bullsh1t and I just can't take him anymore. The problem with doing it on an emotional level is that it can boil over into something much more vulgar.

Can and has been sadly. On both sides.

[Mikie711]

There is a lot of emotional crap that's been thrown about by some elements of the Yes campaign and to me it just damages the whole debate. If some of the potential new Leaders of an independent Scotland could stand up and share a vision of what Scotland would look like as an Independent country, how it would see itself in the world and what its core values would be, then I'd listen a whole lot more..

The whole debate from both sides has been poorly handled, but I guess that was always going to happen given that everybody concerned has a dog in the fight. It has made things considerably more clouded with so much BS floating around which I find really sad.
Anyway soon be over, and you will get peace and quite on here at least as I am away back to work tomorrow.

Good luck to all on the 18th, I hope we at least get something out of all this, as a nation, regardless which way it goes.

[tut]

Presuming that Verian registered me, as I didn't.

tut

[Peter]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sco ... s-29010574

Oh dear, another own goal??