In cases like this it is indeed the fanatics amongst them that go to extremes, but the Catholics v Protestants over the centuries were mass killings purely down to one religion trying to impose its own beliefs on the other.
As for the world list you would have to google to find all the holy or religious wars. Just a few.
4.1 Christianity
4.2 Islam
4.3 Judaism
5 Religious conflict in the modern period
5.1 Palestine and Israel
5.2 Pakistan and India
5.3 Ethiopia - Somalia
5.4 Nigerian conflict
5.5 Buddhist Uprising
5.6 Chinese conflict
5.7 Lebanese Civil War
5.8 Northern Ireland conflict
Most of those were minor skirmishes though compared to the earlier Holy Wars going back through the Millennia.
The best thing that could have happened to civilisation would have been the non existence of Religion at all, or at worst a single one that was believed by all.
tut
ps:- probably a price on my head now for blasphemy.
Great sentences.
Re: Great sentences.
I'm not a religious guy tut and there is a lot of evil in organised religion. I don't see it as the cause though, I see it as the symptom of human nature.
We're tribal as a society, whether thats religion or anything else. We use that tribal group mentality to justify acts that we wouldn't morally justify as an individual. So, in my mind, obliterating all history of Religion would do exactly nothing. We'd be fighting between groups who disagree how much sugar they like in their coffee...
The real problem is tribal mentality and that's something that has allowed the human animal to become the dominant species. So, it's the dark flipside of the beneficial thing that is 'society'
/2c
We're tribal as a society, whether thats religion or anything else. We use that tribal group mentality to justify acts that we wouldn't morally justify as an individual. So, in my mind, obliterating all history of Religion would do exactly nothing. We'd be fighting between groups who disagree how much sugar they like in their coffee...
The real problem is tribal mentality and that's something that has allowed the human animal to become the dominant species. So, it's the dark flipside of the beneficial thing that is 'society'
/2c
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Re: Great sentences.
I have no proof Shug, but I truly believe that religion originated with the Caveman. Unlike the origin of the Universe supposedly coming into existence from the Big Bang that erupted from a singularity, I think one shared belief that Robin and I have is that you can not get something from nothing. Where did the singularity come from? Easy, just accept that it was somehow there. We can deal with that later. Lots of theories offered and very impressive equations on blackboards, but no facts. The same with infinity and parallel universes. As if one is not more than we will ever get our heads around, scientists have to justify their existence by postulating more theories, so that we do not question the guesses that we really want answers for.
Religion is straightforward. Caveman or his successors that had started growing crops, suddenly had a bad week. No mammoths to kill and her in cave complaining that she had no food to cook or nice skins to look good in. Could have been the Cropmeister gazing out over the fields of withered corn. Same scenario, disaster and then suddenly at midday the sky darkens and the sun is attacked by a monster that is biting huge slices out of it. Only one thing to do, get down on knees and start praying(although they did not know that was what it would later be called). That did not work, so step two go and sacrifice the youngest virgin in the village, then lo and behold the sun is whole again, and if he only had a clock he would have seen that it lasted about two hours.
So religion was born, but unfortunately this was happening all around the World, but not as we know it Jim, and so each tribe who had witnessed it gave the miracle its own name, which in turn became the name of all their different Gods and the reason for the sudden decrease in the virgin population
Here endeth the first lesson.......
tut
Religion is straightforward. Caveman or his successors that had started growing crops, suddenly had a bad week. No mammoths to kill and her in cave complaining that she had no food to cook or nice skins to look good in. Could have been the Cropmeister gazing out over the fields of withered corn. Same scenario, disaster and then suddenly at midday the sky darkens and the sun is attacked by a monster that is biting huge slices out of it. Only one thing to do, get down on knees and start praying(although they did not know that was what it would later be called). That did not work, so step two go and sacrifice the youngest virgin in the village, then lo and behold the sun is whole again, and if he only had a clock he would have seen that it lasted about two hours.
So religion was born, but unfortunately this was happening all around the World, but not as we know it Jim, and so each tribe who had witnessed it gave the miracle its own name, which in turn became the name of all their different Gods and the reason for the sudden decrease in the virgin population
Here endeth the first lesson.......
tut
Re: Great sentences.
Double posted
Last edited by tut on Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flyingscot68
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Re: Great sentences.
Different theory here Tut.
Religion was born out of the fact that the majority of people cannot accept the idea that when you die that's it, all over, nothing to follow.
So they invented their own 'religion' that took away that particular worry, then it expanded in all directions to include all sorts of other things.
This went on around the planet for centuries, different ideas from different places.
As time went by separate cultures started bumping into each other due to travelling further afield, some of these religions were wiped out, some grew and others were adapted.
In later years unscrupulous people realised that religion could be used to control the masses, and that they could use this 'faith' to justify just about anything they wanted too.
That last bit is still going on.
My 2p
Religion was born out of the fact that the majority of people cannot accept the idea that when you die that's it, all over, nothing to follow.
So they invented their own 'religion' that took away that particular worry, then it expanded in all directions to include all sorts of other things.
This went on around the planet for centuries, different ideas from different places.
As time went by separate cultures started bumping into each other due to travelling further afield, some of these religions were wiped out, some grew and others were adapted.
In later years unscrupulous people realised that religion could be used to control the masses, and that they could use this 'faith' to justify just about anything they wanted too.
That last bit is still going on.
My 2p
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BiggestNizzy
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Re: Great sentences.
Worth remembering a lot of things good and bad happen in the name of religion, wither that be people/charity's helping the poor/sick/starving etc or Militia groups killing everyone who doesn't agree their interpritation of somehing that was said/written a long time ago.
Religion is an idea and as such it just sit's there doing nothing.
Religion is an idea and as such it just sit's there doing nothing.
Sent from my ZX SPECTRUM +2A
Re: Great sentences.
We're all saying the same thing here, aren't we? Humans created religion. The exact circumstances can't be proven, but given that we've evolved to see patterns in everything, it's a reasonably obvious connection to make. So religion isn't the 'bad' thing - people are the 'bad' thing.
Also - this isn't to ridicule the beliefs of anyone who is religious - you're as entitled to that belief as I am to cling to more rational explanations.
Also - this isn't to ridicule the beliefs of anyone who is religious - you're as entitled to that belief as I am to cling to more rational explanations.
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flyingscot68
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Re: Great sentences.
Yup Shug, correct.
I'm happy to let people believe whatever they want to.
Just don't force it on other people or use it as an excuse to go slaughtering others as these two did.
I'm happy to let people believe whatever they want to.
Just don't force it on other people or use it as an excuse to go slaughtering others as these two did.
Re: Great sentences.
The old joke, "In the beginning, man created God". 
New religions are created every day by people who can't find the answers they need elsewhere. AA meetings, Scientology, Cargo Cults... It's not something we just did a long time ago, we still do. You can even do it under controlled conditions and watch a new religion appear out of thin air. All are made for profit or the benefit of one or more individuals within a group, but the masses don't seem to mind. Why?
People need answers, guidance and a tribe. Those things are commodities that can be sold, and religions are all in the business. If you're not too fussed about accuracy then religion can provide more answers than science presently can. Providing answers (or guidance, or safety in numbers) makes religion useful to people, and anything useful usually sticks around. Of course, there's competition. Anyone can make up new answers, but customers can only buy once... there's going to be a battle for market share.
The biggest feedback mechanism that perpetuates religions is that nobody can stand being told they're wrong. We'll justify our own purchases forever. "Get a Viera/LG/Bravia TV, mine's great!", says everyone. "I don't know what you should get, when I chose mine I didn't do any actual laboratory testing, I just read some reviews, and things have probably moved on since then, and I'm not an expert on panel design", says nobody ever. Somehow we've evolved to think that contributing a heavily biased, self-validating opinion, or a worthless personal anecdote, is somehow just as useful the tribe in the absence of evidence. And somehow we've evolved to accept when other people do this to us. It's weird, but it kind of makes sense in a "trust the tribe" way, but it all reinforces our built-in propensity towards "any answer is better than no answer". Your TV will hang on the wall for 5 years doing a perfectly good job, and never will you hang another next to it just to compare them side by side. Only when the TV smells of smoke and electrocutes your kids again will you maybe think about a new one. Only when your religion lets you down somehow will you be prompted to look elsewhere. If it fits your life, and it works for you, you're not likely to change it. The cost isn't worth the benefit.
Religions are subject to the same selection process as everything else. They can survive while being extremely flawed and imperfect. It doesn't matter if your chosen religion is riddled with contradictions and hatred, any more than it matters to a man that his wife has an appendix she doesn't really need. They just evolved that way, they're useful, and you'll still kick your neighbour in the nuts if he points out how ugly they are.
Personally, I look to science for my answers because I like my answers to be up to date and accurate to the best of human knowledge. Religion can't really compete there. However, I don't get a lot of peace and comfort from science, so I have to find that elsewhere, and I'm not sure atheism has that bit sorted yet...
When people say "science doesn't have all the answers" I get a bit wound up. Yes it bloody does, that's EXACTLY what it has. Science is a big, ever-improving database of answers. In fact, if it's an answer you need, don't ever look anywhere else. On one condition....
You can accept that "we don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer. If people could take "we don't know, and that's ok" (or even better, "we don't know, lets go find out together even if it takes longer than our lifetime") as an acceptable answer then we'd be better off as a human race. Religion would be out of the answers business completely, but that still leaves room to move sideways into the happiness, comfort, community-care and neighbourly-spirit business, where atheism doesn't really have any to offer. Nor, it's worth remembering, is atheism immune to war, hatred and ignorance.
How cool is the new Pope btw? Confiscating a bishop's mansion and turning it into a soup kitchen... That's my kinda Pope!
New religions are created every day by people who can't find the answers they need elsewhere. AA meetings, Scientology, Cargo Cults... It's not something we just did a long time ago, we still do. You can even do it under controlled conditions and watch a new religion appear out of thin air. All are made for profit or the benefit of one or more individuals within a group, but the masses don't seem to mind. Why?
People need answers, guidance and a tribe. Those things are commodities that can be sold, and religions are all in the business. If you're not too fussed about accuracy then religion can provide more answers than science presently can. Providing answers (or guidance, or safety in numbers) makes religion useful to people, and anything useful usually sticks around. Of course, there's competition. Anyone can make up new answers, but customers can only buy once... there's going to be a battle for market share.
The biggest feedback mechanism that perpetuates religions is that nobody can stand being told they're wrong. We'll justify our own purchases forever. "Get a Viera/LG/Bravia TV, mine's great!", says everyone. "I don't know what you should get, when I chose mine I didn't do any actual laboratory testing, I just read some reviews, and things have probably moved on since then, and I'm not an expert on panel design", says nobody ever. Somehow we've evolved to think that contributing a heavily biased, self-validating opinion, or a worthless personal anecdote, is somehow just as useful the tribe in the absence of evidence. And somehow we've evolved to accept when other people do this to us. It's weird, but it kind of makes sense in a "trust the tribe" way, but it all reinforces our built-in propensity towards "any answer is better than no answer". Your TV will hang on the wall for 5 years doing a perfectly good job, and never will you hang another next to it just to compare them side by side. Only when the TV smells of smoke and electrocutes your kids again will you maybe think about a new one. Only when your religion lets you down somehow will you be prompted to look elsewhere. If it fits your life, and it works for you, you're not likely to change it. The cost isn't worth the benefit.
Religions are subject to the same selection process as everything else. They can survive while being extremely flawed and imperfect. It doesn't matter if your chosen religion is riddled with contradictions and hatred, any more than it matters to a man that his wife has an appendix she doesn't really need. They just evolved that way, they're useful, and you'll still kick your neighbour in the nuts if he points out how ugly they are.
Personally, I look to science for my answers because I like my answers to be up to date and accurate to the best of human knowledge. Religion can't really compete there. However, I don't get a lot of peace and comfort from science, so I have to find that elsewhere, and I'm not sure atheism has that bit sorted yet...
When people say "science doesn't have all the answers" I get a bit wound up. Yes it bloody does, that's EXACTLY what it has. Science is a big, ever-improving database of answers. In fact, if it's an answer you need, don't ever look anywhere else. On one condition....
You can accept that "we don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer. If people could take "we don't know, and that's ok" (or even better, "we don't know, lets go find out together even if it takes longer than our lifetime") as an acceptable answer then we'd be better off as a human race. Religion would be out of the answers business completely, but that still leaves room to move sideways into the happiness, comfort, community-care and neighbourly-spirit business, where atheism doesn't really have any to offer. Nor, it's worth remembering, is atheism immune to war, hatred and ignorance.
How cool is the new Pope btw? Confiscating a bishop's mansion and turning it into a soup kitchen... That's my kinda Pope!
211
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958
Re: Great sentences.
Brown or red sauce on a bacon sarnie?Shug wrote: We'd be fighting between groups who disagree how much sugar they like in their coffee...
Ross
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1972 Alfaholics Giulia Super
2000 Elise S1 Sport 160
2004 Bentley Conti GT
2017 Schkoda Yeti
2x Hairy GRs (not Toyota)
Now browsing the tech pages
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1972 Alfaholics Giulia Super
2000 Elise S1 Sport 160
2004 Bentley Conti GT
2017 Schkoda Yeti
2x Hairy GRs (not Toyota)
Now browsing the tech pages
Re: Great sentences.
There, there mate...graeme wrote:However, I don't get a lot of peace and comfort from science, so I have to find that elsewhere, and I'm not sure atheism has that bit sorted yet...D
2010 Honda VFR1200F
1990 Honda VFR400 NC30
2000 Honda VTR1000 SP1
2000 Kawasaki ZX-7R
1990 Honda VFR400 NC30
2000 Honda VTR1000 SP1
2000 Kawasaki ZX-7R
Re: Great sentences.
Awww, look at his wittle nose and his fwoppy ears...
That reminds me, we're out of onions and stock cubes.
That reminds me, we're out of onions and stock cubes.
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958
Re: Great sentences.
Now if he would only accept birth control and hand out free condoms to the third world, and maybe string up a few of his paedophile priests, I would agree.graeme wrote:How cool is the new Pope btw? Confiscating a bishop's mansion and turning it into a soup kitchen... That's my kinda Pope!
tut
ps:- .........and fit a S/C Honda engine to the Popemobile.
Re: Great sentences.
Yip, that will be the conversation at MMC this Sunday.rossybee wrote:Brown or red sauce on a bacon sarnie?Shug wrote: We'd be fighting between groups who disagree how much sugar they like in their coffee...
Brandon, you have been warned.
Steve.