The Referendum

[Mikie711]

At a time when the green shoots of recovery are showing, why on earth would we want to cut free from the stabilising force of the UK Exchequer? Given the level of talent visible in Scottish politics, I'd be terrified to live in a country where all our livelihoods depended on them getting it right. Mike - I hear what you're saying about the theoretical possibilities for Scotland alone, but looking at the stuffed turnips in Holyrood on the news every night, can you put your hand on your heart and tell me you think they are remotely capable of running a country. I'm sorry, the people in Westminster aren't faultless, but it's a level above the dross that's filtered into Holyrood...

My /2c, YMMV, etc. etc...

reading back through this thread and must have missed this, I am firmly in the belief that any desire to become a politician should immediately preclude you from ever becoming one. I don't trust any of them, to a man or woman they are all a bunch of lying gits. I agree that what we have leading us are not the pick of the crop so to speak but it is the system we have and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Under the union things have been up and down, good times and bad and I don't think for one moment it will be any different with independence.
I just think it is in our interest to have a Government that is not constrained by the political will of another Government in a different country with different agenda's. Bearing in mind that it may or may not be the SNP that is in power post independence.

PhilA close but not quite right. The pound sterling is the official currency of United Kingdom, Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, the British Antarctic Territory and Tristan da Cunha.

A Singer spoke with the same arguments as i hear in daily life - we have a chance to make our own choice... they want to vote Yes because we can...
Because we were so hard done by in 1707 that now we (the Scottish people) get the chance to choose instead of it being forced upon us.
She even said she doesnt care about money.

Really? 307 years is fresh in the memory? Ok, so England bought Scotland to keep the same Monach and stop Scotland going off and being an enemy. Scotland wanted the union to get access to the trade markets. The people seemed to not want it. Thats 300 years ago.


Devolution has made a difference, independence is a totally different kettle of fish.

Where do they find these people, and I agree with devolution making a difference and I wish that was what this referendum was about. A fully devolved parliament would be a much better option and should have been what they were asking, perhaps as a stepping stone to full independence.

[robin]

Donkey, there would not be a need for new systems design, just deployment - if they don't already have a resilient/redundant architecture I would be surprised; so really it's just a hardware cost to add some extra servers, then engineer a split-brain scenario (normally this is what your redundancy scheme is trying to avoid, but it's not hard to make it happen if you want it).

Sure it will cost money, but is doesn't require the normal levels of rape and pillage that the big IT companies like to inflict upon the tax payer at every opportunity.

The increased costs/head argument is valid, though - clearly the cost of the IT systems are spread across fewer tax payers but are not really any cheaper to run (whether you have 50 million records or 5 million records doesn't make much difference in terms of costs).

Cheers,
Robin

[BiggestNizzy]

Where does everyone get their info?

Have we all taken to believing politicians? If so we truly are f*cked. Remember everyone has an ulterior motive wither that is salmond wanting to be the first leader of new independent Scotland or Milliband not wanting to loose 40 seats at Westminster.

As for Sterling we get to keep the name because we have the furniture shop.

[campbell]

Robin, I doubt they would do the deployment as slickly as you and the Edisix team so there probably will be some rape and pillage. Sadly.

[PhilA]

As for Sterling we get to keep the name because we have the furniture shop.

haha!!

[robin]

Robin, I doubt they would do the deployment as slickly as you and the Edisix team so there probably will be some rape and pillage. Sadly.

Who knows, the new streamlined Scottish government could take a no sh*t approach to the transition. The Queensland government recently threw the toys out of the pram and barred IBM from bidding on any future public sector work (at least until they are satisfied that the rape-and-pillage is no longer corporate policy ).

There are plenty of smaller IT companies out there that would like the chance to participate; were it me, I would be asking the incumbents for their disaster recovery and migration plans, then put it out to tender in manageable parcels.

Anyway, I don't think it will happen, I don't want it to happen, but I wish there was less scaremongering going on. It's not helpful!

Cheers,
Robin

[Mikie711]

Robin, I doubt they would do the deployment as slickly as you and the Edisix team so there probably will be some rape and pillage. Sadly.

Who knows, the new streamlined Scottish government could take a no sh*t approach to the transition. The Queensland government recently threw the toys out of the pram and barred IBM from bidding on any future public sector work (at least until they are satisfied that the rape-and-pillage is no longer corporate policy ).

There are plenty of smaller IT companies out there that would like the chance to participate; were it me, I would be asking the incumbents for their disaster recovery and migration plans, then put it out to tender in manageable parcels.

Anyway, I don't think it will happen, I don't want it to happen, but I wish there was less scaremongering going on. It's not helpful!

Cheers,
Robin

added to that it would make things a lot clearer if a post referendum plan from the better together camp were published.

[pete]

Robin, I doubt they would do the deployment as slickly as you and the Edisix team so there probably will be some rape and pillage. Sadly.

Who knows, the new streamlined Scottish government could take a no sh*t approach to the transition. The Queensland government recently threw the toys out of the pram and barred IBM from bidding on any future public sector work (at least until they are satisfied that the rape-and-pillage is no longer corporate policy ).

There are plenty of smaller IT companies out there that would like the chance to participate; were it me, I would be asking the incumbents for their disaster recovery and migration plans, then put it out to tender in manageable parcels.

Anyway, I don't think it will happen, I don't want it to happen, but I wish there was less scaremongering going on. It's not helpful!

Cheers,
Robin

added to that it would make things a lot clearer if a post referendum plan from the better together camp were published.

They have - ditch the Barnet formula and punish the uppity Scots. Even all the unionists on here must surely recognise that with this strength of feeling Scotland deserves to have this recognised.

[campbell]

Who knows, the new streamlined Scottish government could take a no sh*t approach to the transition.

We live in hope. However I have seen some of how said organisation go about IT/business services and transition / transformation and it would need a whole new broom to reach the no sh*t style of partnership / supplier management. IMHO

Change costs money. Who's paying.

And I'm not scaremongering, I'm merely asking the question as an honest little citizen...

[pete]

Who knows, the new streamlined Scottish government could take a no sh*t approach to the transition.

We live in hope. However I have seen some of how said organisation go about IT/business services and transition / transformation and it would need a whole new broom to reach the no sh*t style of partnership / supplier management. IMHO

Change costs money. Who's paying.

And I'm not scaremongering, I'm merely asking the question as an honest little citizen...

We all pay. But the costs are negligible (qv Keynes).

[sendmyusername]

Thought i'd have my tuppence worth.
The yes campain has given a declaration of it's intentions. (whether it's relistic or not is another matter)
The no campain hasn't said a thing ?
They have pencilled in ship building, with the promise to take away if we vote yes. (although, if it's only pencilled in, that means it can be taken away even if we don't vote yes)
They have refused to answer a simple question - are they planning to cut the subsidy if we vote no ?
And on the eu membership, are unable to say whether voting No will keep us in the EU as they are having a referendum on it.
I saw the debate between 'the sturge' and some other stooge. She wiped the floor with him, it was pitiful.
It didn't make my mind up in any shape or form, but it was entertaining none the less.
Being unable to answer a single question in a debate is embarassing.
The No vote - we'll all be £1000 worse off if we vote yes.
Well if you take out our contributions to improve london commuter route (hs1&2) and the subsidy cut of £4B doesn't that equate to £1000 ?
I'd rather be £1000 worse off contributing to scotland, than £1000 worse off contributing to london ?
Just now the bulk of the money doesn't leave the capital london.
If the same happened here after devolution, and the money didn't leave edinburgh, at least it's 200miles closer my house, and forty minutes drive away.
Scotland is a small country, and it is more likely to trickle out from edinburgh to glasgow dundee and inverness, than is it is from london (aberdeen has enough money already) (well, except their council)
I don't believe it will be a eutopia, there will be problems, big problems, and there will be a lot of pain too.
However I believe that is going to happen whether we stay in the union, or if we leave the union.
Think it's too far down the road now just to carry on as before.
Big eck has a dream of being the man that brought independence, he doesn't want to be the man remembered as bringing the country to it's knees, so I would like to think he's done his sums.
I don't know what way to vote yet, as they haven't given me enough information to make a decision yet, but as tut said about five pages ago, I will be voting for the choice I believe suits me, my family, and my children. If that means taking some pain to get it. Well.
So personally, i'd like them to stop fannying about.
I'd also like skme reassurances from the NO campain.
Starting with promises they will make in the event of a no vote - subsidy, ship building etc because all this pish about - ohh you aren't good enough, you need us, is starting to wear a bit thin.

[sendmyusername]

With regards to trident, the uk has nowhere else to keep them.
Now, from a purely ecconomical point of view, sure getting rid of them would be a mistake ?
Keep them (at the UKs expense) but use them as a bargaining chip.
You want us to look after them ? - Let us keep the pound.
You want us to look after them ? - Guarantee the ship building on the clyde.
More importantly, the NO campain has said we can't build their warships if we leave the uk, but they want us to keep a hold of their thermo nuclear weapons ?
Seems to be a bit of a mixed message there ?
As for the nats anti nuclear stance, well, everyone has a price, and the base does bring in money to the surrounding area. I'd rather have a pollitician stand up and say - we didn't want to keep them, but we have to put scotlands interests above our own egos, so we have made a deal.
I know, I know, never gonna happen...

[pete]

Thought i'd have my tuppence worth.
The yes campain has given a declaration of it's intentions. (whether it's relistic or not is another matter)
The no campain hasn't said a thing ?
They have pencilled in ship building, with the promise to take away if we vote yes. (although, if it's only pencilled in, that means it can be taken away even if we don't vote yes)
They have refused to answer a simple question - are they planning to cut the subsidy if we vote no ?
And on the eu membership, are unable to say whether voting No will keep us in the EU as they are having a referendum on it.
I saw the debate between 'the sturge' and some other stooge. She wiped the floor with him, it was pitiful.
It didn't make my mind up in any shape or form, but it was entertaining none the less.
Being unable to answer a single question in a debate is embarassing.
The No vote - we'll all be £1000 worse off if we vote yes.
Well if you take out our contributions to improve london commuter route (hs1&2) and the subsidy cut of £4B doesn't that equate to £1000 ?
I'd rather be £1000 worse off contributing to scotland, than £1000 worse off contributing to london ?
Just now the bulk of the money doesn't leave the capital london.
If the same happened here after devolution, and the money didn't leave edinburgh, at least it's 200miles closer my house, and forty minutes drive away.
Scotland is a small country, and it is more likely to trickle out from edinburgh to glasgow dundee and inverness, than is it is from london (aberdeen has enough money already) (well, except their council)
I don't believe it will be a eutopia, there will be problems, big problems, and there will be a lot of pain too.
However I believe that is going to happen whether we stay in the union, or if we leave the union.
Think it's too far down the road now just to carry on as before.
Big eck has a dream of being the man that brought independence, he doesn't want to be the man remembered as bringing the country to it's knees, so I would like to think he's done his sums.
I don't know what way to vote yet, as they haven't given me enough information to make a decision yet, but as tut said about five pages ago, I will be voting for the choice I believe suits me, my family, and my children. If that means taking some pain to get it. Well.
So personally, i'd like them to stop fannying about.
I'd also like skme reassurances from the NO campain.
Starting with promises they will make in the event of a no vote - subsidy, ship building etc because all this pish about - ohh you aren't good enough, you need us, is starting to wear a bit thin.

Nice summary of how I changed from a fervent anti to leaning towards yes.
Very balanced.
Well put.

[David]

Thought i'd have my tuppence worth.
The yes campain has given a declaration of it's intentions. (whether it's relistic or not is another matter)
The no campain hasn't said a thing ?
They have pencilled in ship building, with the promise to take away if we vote yes. (although, if it's only pencilled in, that means it can be taken away even if we don't vote yes)
They have refused to answer a simple question - are they planning to cut the subsidy if we vote no ?
And on the eu membership, are unable to say whether voting No will keep us in the EU as they are having a referendum on it.
I saw the debate between 'the sturge' and some other stooge. She wiped the floor with him, it was pitiful.
It didn't make my mind up in any shape or form, but it was entertaining none the less.
Being unable to answer a single question in a debate is embarassing.
The No vote - we'll all be £1000 worse off if we vote yes.
Well if you take out our contributions to improve london commuter route (hs1&2) and the subsidy cut of £4B doesn't that equate to £1000 ?
I'd rather be £1000 worse off contributing to scotland, than £1000 worse off contributing to london ?
Just now the bulk of the money doesn't leave the capital london.
If the same happened here after devolution, and the money didn't leave edinburgh, at least it's 200miles closer my house, and forty minutes drive away.
Scotland is a small country, and it is more likely to trickle out from edinburgh to glasgow dundee and inverness, than is it is from london (aberdeen has enough money already) (well, except their council)
I don't believe it will be a eutopia, there will be problems, big problems, and there will be a lot of pain too.
However I believe that is going to happen whether we stay in the union, or if we leave the union.
Think it's too far down the road now just to carry on as before.
Big eck has a dream of being the man that brought independence, he doesn't want to be the man remembered as bringing the country to it's knees, so I would like to think he's done his sums.
I don't know what way to vote yet, as they haven't given me enough information to make a decision yet, but as tut said about five pages ago, I will be voting for the choice I believe suits me, my family, and my children. If that means taking some pain to get it. Well.
So personally, i'd like them to stop fannying about.
I'd also like skme reassurances from the NO campain.
Starting with promises they will make in the event of a no vote - subsidy, ship building etc because all this pish about - ohh you aren't good enough, you need us, is starting to wear a bit thin.

I think this sums up what is so sad about this whole affair, and makes me angry about what the SNP has brought about! We're in a lose-lose situation. The 'no' vote will probably signal a surrender to Westminster, and a 'yes' vote will be risk too far for many of us. Devolution was working well, and all the SNP seem to be doing is throwing the toys out the pram. At some sage, the UK government isn't going to put them back and the Scottish politicians are all going to have to grow up pretty quickly. Painful times ahead.

[BiggestNizzy]

One of the guys in the building is a labour activist so we got a better together "newspaper" today.

General gist seems to be.
If you were born in England you'll be deported as will all the Scots living in England.
If you fall ill while visiting England the NHS will turn you away.
England keeps the pound it's all theirs your mortgage will go up.
Well be out of Europe. ( interesting that the UK government is having a referendum on that)
We get more money than the UK average (less than London)
We won't be able to boss the rest of the world around / invade
More jobs
The Uk government are keeping the pension money.
We won't be able to afford to spend money helping Indians at school. They need clever people for their space program.
Subo wouldn't have got her big break
The Scottish bloke wouldn't have won the bake off.
A recipe for raspberry brownies
Our fashion industry will collapse.
Alex Ferguson says so.