Head Gaskets.

[woody]

Pete, PartCo accross from Tesco sell the correct Payne brand gaskets, both standard elastomer and MLS. Have been excellent to deal with for me.

[pete]

the kiwirog head has different sized inlet valves. I presume you mean valve stem guides? As thats where the oil usage probably comes from.

Thanks. Probably do!

[robin]

There are three components that could be replaced, valves, valve stem guides and valve stem oil seals.

The oil seals come with the head gasket kit and should always be replaced.

Please don't let them touch the valves or valve stem guides as neither is standard on your head. If they determine that either needs replacing it will be better to get Rog to replace like-with-like.

If the surface of the head has indentations in it then it's almost not worth refitting without a peen-and-skim, though that's opinion rather than fact.

Cheers,
Robin

P.S. Unless there is good reason to replace the bolts I wouldn't bother. They were new when we put the Ape's head on and they were OE bolts; if you get a 3rd party to fit the head and they use non-OE bolts who knows whether those have the right magic yield characteristics to keep the MagicK working ... use the wrong bolts and all the magic pisses out the gaps.

P.P.S. The head kit also comes with cam oil seals. I'm pretty sure at least one of Ape's was weeping, probably because I botched fitting it. Might as well replace those while you've got the head off.

[pete]

There are three components that could be replaced, valves, valve stem guides and valve stem oil seals.

The oil seals come with the head gasket kit and should always be replaced.

Please don't let them touch the valves or valve stem guides as neither is standard on your head. If they determine that either needs replacing it will be better to get Rog to replace like-with-like.

If the surface of the head has indentations in it then it's almost not worth refitting without a peen-and-skim, though that's opinion rather than fact.

Cheers,
Robin

P.S. Unless there is good reason to replace the bolts I wouldn't bother. They were new when we put the Ape's head on and they were OE bolts; if you get a 3rd party to fit the head and they use non-OE bolts who knows whether those have the right magic yield characteristics to keep the MagicK working ... use the wrong bolts and all the magic pisses out the gaps.

P.P.S. The head kit also comes with cam oil seals. I'm pretty sure at least one of Ape's was weeping, probably because I botched fitting it. Might as well replace those while you've got the head off.

Thanks Sir. The cam seal is on the list.

<hits print - exits stage left to garage>

[campbell]

<hits print - exits stage left to garage>

LOL, they are going to LOVE you

[pete]

<hits print - exits stage left to garage>

LOL, they are going to LOVE you

"How does he know your cam seal is leaking?"

[robin]

Two of the seals can be seen from the flywheel end of the engine; pretty sure the exhaust one on this side was weeping last time I looked at it.

Cheers,
Robin

[mckeann]

as robin says, one was leaking a bit, always had done, cant remember which one it was though but it was definitely above the gearbox end. I dont think thats where your excessive oil loss problem at Oulton park is coming from, but makes sense to fix it whilst its in bits.

[pete]

Sorry I should have explained that better. Showed the mail to the mechanic who laughed and said "How the hell does he know the seal is leaking". I hadn't properly explained it was about MY car rather than just generic K series stuff.

[robin]

Aha!

[KingK_series]

More times than you think, it's not the gasket itself that's at fault. Your choice of replacement gasket is partially also made by the fault that caused the failure.

If the head is slightly porus/soft, an MLS gasket is arguably the choice - but I'm led to believe it's just as reliant (or perhaps moreso) on liner heights.

The standard gasket will work fine if the liner heights are good, the head isn't soft and there are steel dowels used to prevent head shuffle.

Gasket failure is usually the symptom, not the cause, so the gasket you use is a more complicated answer than "a is better than b"

Before you proceed, get the head inspected for hardness and porosity and check the liner heights are within spec, or you're just patching a wound that'll burst again...

Absolutely right

except if the head is soft it is scrap....

FYI Ford [Landrover in those days] were p>>>>>>>ed off by the no of warranty claims on Freelander, and wanted a visible fix at any cost..........the Rover engineers called that politics and were incensed...

The shim actually came about from Judd who used one in a completely mistaken effort to cure an issue with their BTCC engine [forgive me if I keep the whole story for the book] but it got out to Ford who thought ok if we do that we can fix engines rather than replace them all togeather, since not many [read none] Land Rover/MG/Rover dealers/garages possessed hardness testers or knew anything about them - it was a botch in the hope of saving money.


The truth is the Payen elastomer and MLS gaskets are probably the best most sophisticated OE gaskets ever made, they are almost Lechler rings [the gaskets designed especially to seal 1400bhp 1.5L F1 turbo engines. the firering gives a very high point loading seal, and also is designed to deform into surface irregularities sealing them - ie porosity or skim cuts. Use a shim and the firering cannot seal in the way it was designed, so you are dependent on the coating head side to do the job, ok for water/oil junctions , but not high pressure cylinder joins - or less good.


The new chinese gasket is essentially what every other OE uses, or the Payen uses on the water/oil junctions, a kink in the coreplate and a coating. In otherwords it is a massive costdown, like much of the N series. Now I am told by friends still on the engine that new plant was invested in to get the standproud right at the factory [liners very rarely sink - I have seen it just once on Adrian Newey's BBGTi turbo engine that went bang years ago, blocks left the factory at the bottom of the tolerance window 0-4 thou ie no standproud, it was only in 2002 that the tolerance was changed to 4-5thou , but by that time the plant was knackered] - in which case the new gasket has a halfway chance of working with a good head casting. I am told by the guys that know that the failure rate is high - for a start the quality of castings out of China has gone through the floor. - shhhhhhh!

Don't touch the Chinese gasket, BTW massive row going on now between SAIC and X-Part because X-part promoted new gasket for legacy [ie yours and mine] engines

get standproud to 4 though, by decking properly [ do not "linish block in car under any circumstances"]

hardness test head to 95br +

use either Payen gasket [mls may leak to outside of block until it has had 2/3 heat cycles] but is more tolerant of overheating.

use new oe longbolts and revised oil rail

use 82 deg PRT

make sure you have no air trapped in coolant system [difficult requires application] vacuum fill is best

[pete]

Cheers Sir. (Although now I am going to have to go back to my mechanic with further info. Which feels awkward.)

[campbell]

Cheers Sir. (Although now I am going to have to go back to my mechanic with further info. Which feels awkward.)

Just get him an account on here and suggest he bookmarks Technical !