The Pope

[BiggestNizzy]

Perhaps it's time for another Weegie/Edi/Abz/Killie Beers session and drink some wine
Mac

Yeah !

Religion is a personal thing, unless it effects me I keep out of it (unless you ask)

Beer however is a social thing and must be done

[graeme]

Perhaps I'm tainted by the west coast bias but when you have folk within 100miles killed because they follow a different flavour of the same religion then I really don't want to get in to discussion where comments can be mis-interpretated.

If there is a large ground swell of folk on SE who would like an area to discuss religious matters then perhaps the forum moderators could create a sub forum where this can take place. The subject on this posting is rather vauge and it could draw in folk that don't want to read the subject matter.

I for one just don't feel comfortable talking about these matters when I don't really know the folk I'm talking too.

We don't set up a new forum for every topic. If you're really worried Mac (which you clearly are), then don't join in. But kindly don't afford religion any courtesy which it hasn't earned.

I like Dave's thoughts on kids being religious because their parents are. There's no such thing as a Christian child, just a child with Christian parents. If only their parents realised that and let them choose for themselves... There are some theists who got there by themselves, but I think I've only ever actually known one. He was quite interesting to talk to, because at least he'd thought about it. Most theists are definitely in the "I don't really understand why I think that, I just sort of do." group, and they're not much use to any debate on the subject. Most I've spoken to haven't read the Bible and don't know what's in it. The kids who were brought up to be religious usually don't really know what they think because they've never actually had to think about it. Kids are programmed to trust their parents - it's survival. Don't touch fire, don't play with snakes, don't eat those berries and say lots of prayers. Don't question, just trust me.

Pete's view on teachers and religion is one I've pondered much. Can creationists teach science. Hmmm. I think Pete is quite focused on the individual teacher, where my concerns are more with getting all religion out of schools completely at a governmental level. I want to see an end to the state (my taxes) supporting the brainwashing of children by allowing creationist or islamic or catholic schools (or any other) to be built or run in the UK. Any mention of religion in schools* should be banned, outlawed and banned again. Basically, I want a secular state, and I mean a really really secular state, not like America which is a secular country with "In God we trust" printed on its banknotes (the founding fathers must be turning in their graves!). Note that secular isn't atheist! I'm atheist, but I'm not intolerant. I just want boundaries. It's worth noting that while the UK is fairly mixed in terms of beliefs and considers itself tolerant, it is NOT a secular nation. Doesn't even pretend to be. We have an official national religion, and the Queen heads the church (the same Queen my taxes pay for). I don't feel angry at individual teachers for whatever views they hold, more at the state for imposing religion on us whether we want it or not. If you're worried about it, no point living in Blighty - pick a secular country and move there (and I'll be right behind you).

* I don't mean pretending religion doesn't exist; I mean not preaching to children or teaching religious myths as fact. I'm all for the study of as many religions as possible, but teaching and preaching are not the same thing. Children should be taught that some people think god exists, not that god exists. Massive difference.

[Sanjøy]

I came here to talk cars and drinks beers with the boys. This is like talking shop on a work night out.

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

Oh and Lewis PLEASE tell me that was tongue in cheek, for the first 20 years of my life wee white catholic men were the definition of terrorists!

[a4drk]

[/quote]

My view point is that there's very little to be gain from discussing religion on a car based forum. It's my view and may not be the view of others.

Mac[/quote]

OK, here we go then.

What do you think of the Merc Based ML Pope Chariot then ?

David

[pete]

I didn’t say I took personal offence just that I thought it was insulting to those who believe in a religion, however I do feel you are mixing up religion with extremism.

But without the silent majority the extremists would be a tiny bunch of loonies. With them they are powerful bunch of loonies.

How do I equate the demonstrable good the Chuch does with the misguided (I'm being nice) belief structure I believe to be at its core?
I don't. It's a dichotomy I struggle to rationalise.

Pigeonholing everyone who believes in the top three religions (50% of the worlds population belongs to one of the three) as someone “who should not be allowed in a position of authority” is just narrow minded. But hey ho, you are entitled to think how you like.

I am entitled to think my own thoughts and a lot of them are frankly, filthy and involve Uma Thurman more than they should. But if you think the thinking I expressed in the introductory post is wrong I welcome your explanation of why (but know I was mildly mortified I'd generated the sort of response I did. Didn't actually mean to offend anyone.)

But ask yourself this. Forget about your faith and look at it from the point of view of someone who doesn't have faith.
Now be interviewing for a job and have a candidate who explains to you they believe in magic, that there is a book they use to guide their life which features incest, rape, misogeny, human sacrifice, slavery, (all from the good guys) and then moves on to a day when the world will end and people will be bodily taken into heaven. That in this book people hear voices and those voices are the voice of god and they must be obeyed.

You gonna give him a job?

That’s the best thing about religion it’s very tolerant.

Oh you are funny. That's a joke right?

Organised religion preaches tolerance but practices something far different.
There are Palestinians who are born and die in refugee camps.
Catholics don't believe that women are as good as men, do they? No female leaders is a tenent of the Church?
Millions die of disease and a Church preaches against the cure.
Even the good old C of S has 270 ministers signing a petition protesting the ordination of a gay minister. Who presumbly was created in God's image.

Are Trade Union reps?!

I am. But that's why I'm not a very good rep
But then we don't start wars. We do practice and attempt to further equality.

Haven forbid that the TU movement is compared with religion but can your Church say the same?
If it can good.
Now ask yourself for how long has it been doing this.

I am SO gonna burn for this post.


Pete

[pete]

Thank God I'm an atheist

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

Abrahamic religions all tend to get a bit shouty when they dont get their own way. They didn't blow up a plane but Manchester city centre suffered an extensive, unplanned remodelling a few years ago.

[pete]

I thought of putting this in a PM but,

Big D

I talk about this stuff with friends and it's become a sport. They are trying to convert me, I am trying to get them to see the truth.

If you find me genuinely offensive the accepted reply is something along the ines of "You are going to burn in hell you atheist c-nt. And I'm not gonna plead for you."

Or in other words if I offend you, tell me to f-ck off.

It's not personal for me, it might be for you. And it's not for me to judge if that is appropriate.

[graeme]

What do you think of the Merc Based ML Pope Chariot then ?

3" bulletproof glass... obviously that faith thing isn't working out too well for him. :p

[Stumpy Nugget]

Being a complete non believer I have read most of the Bible ( traveled a lot for work and UK adult channels just dont cut it).. What I have learned is that most religious types know less about the whole thing than me. Maybe there should be a test after church to ensure that people actually understand the point of it all before they head off to the car park and shout at the guy who has blocked them in...

[roadboy]

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

So so wrong on so many levels! I don't blame you for thinking like this though Lewis. Most people probably do but that's down to the media in our Christian country.

I think both Pete and Graeme have made very good points. I am not against religion but I strongly believe it has no place in the educationof our children.

/2p

Dan

[vx220]

Very interesting thread and if people are big enough to discuss this subjectively then open the doors for debate, no offence is intended by anyone and so offence shouldnt be taken.

Personally I am open to suggestion on religion but dont believe in any of it! I guess you are either a religious person with faith or you are a scientist who believes in facts. I am a scientist, the wife she has faith.

I personally think that religion is the biggest source of problems in the world, more harm than good came from religion.

How anyone can believe what is written in the Bible is beyond me, I mean come on read it and then apply logic. I know people say its not whats written its what is meant by it all, so if thats the case its just a story book giving you some advice - exactly which part is true again?

I dont know much about other religions apart from CoE, I know a little but what I do know turns me off straight away.

Can you imagine a world without any religion?

[renmure]

Perhaps we can add the position of Judge to the list of jobs best left to Atheists or Agnostics since religion seems to bring an inherent bias to the role.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8497365.stm

Suppose the fact that "offender" was the religious guy is just one of lifes little ironies and that the victim, Mr Mohammed Furcan, will rejoice at the judgement and sentence of high profile catholic Ms Booth.

[Stumpy Nugget]

I know people say its not whats written its what is meant by it all, so if thats the case its just a story book giving you some advice - exactly which part is true again?

"You must never eat rock badgers"... I follow this guidance to the letter.. WTF is a rock badger anyway?

[Shug]

It's nice to see a properly considered discussion on here, with no baiting and sensationalism for the sake of it.

My take on religion is fairly fixed in logical historical extrapolation.

The Human race is a tribal culture - evolution has seen to it that, so survive, we've had to band together to live alongside individually more powerful creatures. This tribalism inevitably leads to factions developing - it's just a larger view of natural selection, instead of the strongest individual, it's the strongest group.

Parallel with this, Man develops a need to explain the random events and environmental factors surrounding him. What was the original "point" of prayer? Better chances for crops to succeed, support in war (has there ever been anyone who went to war believing God wasn't on their side?)

The two merge and factionism works into religion. "My God is better than your God" Over time, this creates power structures, which are self fulfilling - the 'Church' (and by that I mean Church leaders, who are Human, therefore have the tendency to self-improvement) use 'faith' to subjugate the masses and maintain power and control. Witness the incredible wealth of the Catholic Church for examples...

With countless generations indoctrinated from birth into 'Faith', it becomes part of the fabric of humankind. Through it all, tribalism is maintained. Were it not a "God" it'd be something else we'd be fighting over.

As for the actual beliefs in deities - I have none. I find the argument for logic and the constantly shifting counter-arguments that religions have held through the ages proof enough of this for me. It's devilishly (see what I did there?) clever in that any logical questioning can very easily be swept away by the cornerstone requirement in most religions for blind faith - very clever.

When it comes down to what bothers me - well, there it's slightly more confused. You see, I believe this factionism is an integral part of human nature, like breathing or the desire to breed. So, if there was no religion in the world, we'd be killing and persecuting each other in the names of other things. There is a chunk of religion that is positive - the ground level teachings of basic morality and care - lets be honest, whilst these would initially have been invented to control a barbaric population, how far is society really away from that barbarism today? Just witness race riots and mob action to see that there is still a huge proportion of the populace that needs to be told not to kill each other...

So basically, the problem isn't religion - it's Human Nature. Religion is just the formalisation of it.

[tut]

I was going to post part of what Shug did, but he has put it far better than I could have. However we have virtually identical views and beliefs.

Put simply my view is that at some stage way in the past the crops failed, man looked up to the sky, pleaded that they grew again, and from here came prayer. This would have happened all around the World, so different ways of saying "please come back" developed into different religions. It also explains the sacrifice of anything from chickens to virgins.

tut