Spoke too soon? S1 odd noise...

robin · Post by **robin** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:06 am

Stopping the fuel pump we can do - remove the link from the immob and it will soon stop.

Cheers,
Robin

robin · Post by **robin** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:44 pm

Iain,

My Emerald has now had the latest upgrade - I have asked them to load it with a standard S1 map so it should at least run your engine without problems (maybe not that well on the cold start without some mapping, so I would start it with some throttle and keep it running on the throttle until it's warmed up).

Can you send me an address to send it to - it's sitting at Emerald now ready to go.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:48 pm

Cool

Should I regap the plugs to 0.9mm if they are out?

Also - I'll be checking the timing tonight as per the manual so i'll let you know tomorrow what that turns up.

You have PM with my snail mail.

Thanks,
Iain

robin · Post by **robin** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:42 pm

I would just leave the plug gaps alone unless they are massively out.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:59 pm

Fitted the Emerald. Upon turning the key the fuel pump primes (quite a bit longer than usual, maybe 3x the prime time?) and the wee red LED comes on.

The car cranks over fine, but still won't start.

Checked the timing as per the manual. With the timing marks on the camshaft pulleys aligned, I checked the crankshaft pulley marks.

Only there aren't any on the pulley...

It looks like someone has fitted a Geary crankshaft pulley (the billet one without the spare pulley) and it has no marks on it.

Given that the car started and ran fine a few weeks ago, could timing still be the issue? If so, how the devil do I check timing without a crankshaft pulley timing mark to match up to the bottom housing timing marks?

Away to read up on making the Emerald serial lead....

Cheers,
Iain

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:00 pm

robin wrote:I would just leave the plug gaps alone unless they are massively out.

Cheers,
Robin

They were fine, so left them be

robin · Post by **robin** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:15 pm

Does the light go green during cranking (red means "I see power but not crank position sensor", green means "I am synced up with the crank position sensor").

You need to remove the bottom pulley then use a mirror to look down the teeth of the lower belt pulley - when the engine is at the right place you will see there are two dimples in the pulley and these will be either side of a vertical line cast into the front of the engine (actually it might be part of the oil pump housing, but anyway, it's a vertical line on the front).

I have a spare lead here - if you want I can just post it up to you tomorrow, though I guess you won't see it until next week now.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:11 am

Yup, the green light comes on as soon as you start to crank.

It's clearly trying to start, coughing and juddering like something in their dying moments...

Can you send up your spare lead please? I haven't got any connectors here to make up my own...

I'll PM you my home address and maybe that way I might get it tomorrow...

Cheers,
Iain

fd · Post by fd » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm

So . . . it cranks it has fuel and spark but will not run . . .

Is the spark good ? as opposed to just a spark ?

Is the fuel ok ? how much is in it - have you tried checking how much is coming out of the fuel rail return - it should be A LOT, perhaps the fuel pressure reg has given up and you don't have sufficient fuel pressure . . .

The timing still needs verified but I asssume you cranked it over enough manually (with a spanner) to see that the belt is OK ? Was it tight ?

You need to compression test it.

Fd

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:40 pm

Thanks Fd,

It's a pretty strong spark, certainly enough to run it a couple of weeks ago. How would one quantify a good spark, I guess just experience, but it looks okay to me...

There's 12L showing on the gauge, I put 2 gallons in a few weeks back, but I could put in more if you think it needs it, maybe dilute old fuel in there...

When we tried the fuel pressure, there was tons of pressure (well 3 bar probably) on pump prime, dribbles during cranking and a huge gush at shutdown. You can certainly smell it at the exhaust and the plugs get soaked after long cranking.

I cranked it over manually and the camshaft marks line up every time, the belt looks fine, no nicks/tears obvious signs of terminal wear. I dare say it could probably do with another one, but that can wait until I get it running. It seems fairly tight, should there be any give or should it be rock solid?

I don't have a compression tester, but Halfrauds sell them IIRC so I could get one to check that out.

Will the Emerald tell me if compression is low?

Thanks,
Iain

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:48 pm

fd wrote:So . . . it cranks it has fuel and spark but will not run . . .

Is the spark good ? as opposed to just a spark ?

Is the fuel ok ? how much is in it - have you tried checking how much is coming out of the fuel rail return - it should be A LOT, perhaps the fuel pressure reg has given up and you don't have sufficient fuel pressure . . .

The timing still needs verified but I asssume you cranked it over enough manually (with a spanner) to see that the belt is OK ? Was it tight ?

You need to compression test it.

Fd

Something else which might suggest timing -

When turning it over with the spark plugs removed and the plug leads well out of the way, to clear the bores of excess fuel, there were a couple of times when an orange flame shot vertically from the plug bore....

I've only ever seen this once before about 15 years ago on an XR2 when the timing was years out...

Last time the Elise was running there was a lot of oil burning off which took a good few minutes to clear. Looks like it was coming from on the exhaust manifold side. On the inside of the car between the seats there are traces of oil, probably from the fumes, where it appears to have seeped through the plastic cover on the bulkhead... possible??

Can you fit an S2 engine in an S1? I saw a nice low mileage 135R engine on PH the other day

Cheers,
Iain

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:25 pm

Robin,

With the Emerald connected, I uploaded the map from it to the laptop.

Its a S1 map, but for a S1 with BP270's, a Blue flame exhaust, ITG induction and a decat... not mine then...

Do you have a std map for an S1 I can download to the unit.

It's so close to firing it's hard to believe it's not already purring away on the driveway!

I have configured it to use grouped injection and i've turned off wasted spark/twin coil mode as you suggested.

Is there anything in particular I should be looking for when cranking it over?

Cheers,
Iain

robin · Post by **robin** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:51 pm

Well there is a lot of stuff, but remember the MEMS has a perfectly good map in it and the point was to determine whether or not the 5AS is sending the code to the ECU, and the emerald lets you work that out because it can go into code learning mode and tell you when it's received a code.

You know the MEMS is good because you got a spare one ...

Anyway, often times the emerald is configured not to drive the IACV - so although normally I wouldn't recommend starting the engine on the throttle, in this case it might well be needed. Give it half throttle and if it catches, hold the revs around 2K until it warms up.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:15 am

Thanks Robin,

I looked in the maps and the only one on the laptop is for an S160.

I am surmising that is different to the std S1 map.

The map loaded into the Emerald is for a S1 with BP270's, ITG, Blue flame and decat and there looks to be some odd advance timing values in there too.

I'd be happier knowing we'd tried it with a std map before ruling out anything else.

The MEMS I have has been reprogrammed by Avon to match with the 5AS as you know, and so I think we can rule out the ECU and immobiliser as a source of woes.

BTW, I ran the Emerald with the bridging links in the immobiliser.

I'll try a std map if someone has one and if that doesn't work it's back to the head scratching....

Cheers,
Iain

Lawrence · Post by **Lawrence** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:47 am

timmsky wrote:
fd wrote:
You need to compression test it.

Fd
Something else which might suggest timing -

years ago on an XR2 when the timing was years out...

Iain

Take the plugs out and set all the pistons at the same height using a long bar down the plug holes. This is the position that the missing timing mark should indicate then mark the ally pulley. Check the cam timing marks. if they are miles out turn the engine until the pistons are all the same height again (1/2 revolution) and check the timing again. Whilst retiming the cams, checking the bottom belt pulley dots are still correctly aligned.

Also

Set the fuel map in the Emerald boxes to zero (0) for the bottom left 4 boxes. That's all 4 making a square. This will allow you to apply full throttle at cranking speed and clear the engine of fuel.