CADWELL PARK - November 11th Javelin

Post by **Shug** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:53 pm

GregR wrote:
PhilA wrote:never going on a Javelin trackday ever again.

booked the last one. couldnt get insurance (it was sold are circuit, so should have had MSA approval due to common sense but didnt so insurance company (Lotus Esteem) didnt back it) . tried to cancel - could cancel but no money back nor any credit.

theifs!

....no credit? That's apalling! Have you taken it further with them? If they're not coughing up, send me a PM and we'll get them sorted

This is not an excuse for them, as I totally agree with you - however, I believe they might be a bit more receptive to credits on any other TD.

The day Phil's referring to (you were there, weren't you?) had been put on the website at the wrong price, but they honoured the bookings for it. I guess that's why they would be less incentivised to lose even more money...

Still, that said, Phil was treated very shabbily - not sure they actively did anything wrong (Phil could have gone on the TD, but his choice was not to, thanks to the insurance situation) but they didn't do anybody any favours....

GregR · Post by **GregR** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:59 pm

I recall it well Shugster, indeed I borrowed your wee red helmet for a slip-slidey run with Gordon

.

.....must think through sentences before typing.....

Will see what Phil wants to do, as its not really proper to comment in the absence of the hard facts

mac · Post by **mac** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:11 pm

As I said at the time I think the crux of the mater is that they said it was a "trackday" - but what defines at "trackday" - for car use I would imagine that it would need to be held on an track that was acknowledge by the motorsport authority - which is wasn't.

Crail isn't a track - it's a loop on an old airfield - Ef is in the same boat until recognised by the MSA.

Mac

Uldis · Post by **Uldis** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:50 pm

FWIW when I booked through Javelin for east Fortune and had to cancel I get refunded immediately so haven't had any bad experience.

Could it be that you wanted to cancel really late? like on the day?
Because any other trackday organizer would do the same if they don't have a waiting list for the day...

Post by **Shug** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:04 pm

Uldis wrote:FWIW when I booked through Javelin for east Fortune and had to cancel I get refunded immediately so haven't had any bad experience.

Could it be that you wanted to cancel really late? like on the day?
Because any other trackday organizer would do the same if they don't have a waiting list for the day...

He wanted to cancel on the week of the event IIRC - however, Javelin did not mention that despite advertising it as a trackday, the circuit did not have MSA approval (therefore insurers don't see it as a recognised track)

Phil wasn't going to go on without insurance (that he had through Esteem anyway) and his last option was to cancel. Javelin then came back with no recompense, either a refund or a credit.

So, they stuck to their terms (as they are entitled to) but it wasn't in very good spirit, thanks to their slightly incorrect classification of the venue.

PhilA · Post by **PhilA** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:31 am

shug sums it up well.

aye, i was late cancelling - 2 days before, tho it was at the beginning of that week that i had got back to them saying i was having problems coz they were not certified - was full of muddy waters coz i knew nothing of any approval needed etc - i thought a trackday organiser would of course have all that was common sense needed or, being in the know, would indicate any important information to noobs!

i have been lazy and not followed it up with advice from mac etc. i should really have gone to group they belong to (trackday organiser organisation peeps)?

I did try to play the 'hard ball' and the reasonable approach too - but they were not receiptive to either. First time when i tried to contact them saying i had problems Colin had to go off the phone coz his battery was running out (the friday the week before I think). The lady was helpful at first saying that they were members of that organisation. Esteem were helpful in expaining what MSA is. Colin eventually said that he would be happy to go to Trading Standards.

Thing is - it is in their t&c that its up to them what they do if u cancel within the last 10 days. It wasnt like I was cancelling coz I didnt want to go - I had arranged for Cat to meet me there and for her to come out on track for the first time, and it looked like a fun circuit! I was simply cancelling coz I couldnt get approval to go on track without insurance because they had organised a "trackday" at an unapproved "airfield".

Colin said "The fact that you only decided to check and act within 72hrs of the event demonstrates a lack of attention to detail on your part."

No, I didnt check it then - was no need to check in the past so was just informing the insurance company - then I was trying to get around the approval problem. I stupidly assumed that a trackday organiser would have the relevant information associated with trackdays on their booking system - the "trackday" and "circuit" difference is quite clear (especially now!).

I just got fed up. But i would be very happy to chase it up again - i got stomped by the officialness of the next step.

cheers
Phil

p.s. got stung for 200 quid from ford too recently, its not my year for "good will"

Uldis · Post by **Uldis** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:56 am

Hmmm, you have a good point.

Not supportive to Javelin it is then.

Andy G · Post by **Andy G** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:52 am

Do any of the other track-days operations have anything good coming up for November?

mckeann · Post by **mckeann** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:12 pm

lotus on track is pretty quiet in november as were all off to new zealand

Andy G · Post by **Andy G** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:29 pm

mckeann wrote:lotus on track is pretty quiet in november as were all off to new zealand

Swines!

mckeann · Post by **mckeann** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:41 pm

oh, and i'm going to fiji aswell

Andy G · Post by **Andy G** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:52 am

Did Cadwell yesterday, not bothering with Javelin's

Javelin · Post by **Javelin** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:02 am

Hi This is Colin From Javelin Trackdays. I think a few misconceptions need clarifying here. However it must be realised that I would never disclose or publish client conversations or information on a public forum. I am therfore fighting with one arm tied behind my back in situations such as this. I hope you all can understand and respect that fact.

1) It would be wrong to describe East Fortune as an airfield. It is now a circuit. A really good one at that.
2. MSA approval for a circuit only applies when an MSA permitted event is taking place and at no other time. Therefore when you participate in a trackday at for example Brands Hatch, Silverstone etc the circuit is not MSA approved. Admitted the armco and tyre walls are in the same place but from a legal standpoint the circuit carries no more MSA accreditation than Crail. An awful lot of the other criteria to meet the MSA Track Licence is not in place on a normal trackday.
You will realise therfore that it would be irresponsible of me to advertise that any circuit is MSA approved.
3. You really should be talking to your insurers. They are ones that imposing an undeliverable condition on their terms of business.
4. What is a trackday? I interpret this as an event that allows you to enjoy driving or riding your vehicle in a closed and safety concious environment. I would hope that those of you that participated in March would acknowledge the events met that yardstick.

Cadwell Numbers - Admitted it is not on the site but we do have a limit of 72 cars for the 11th Nov event. Effectively 3 x a circuit limit of 24 cars. MSV this year increased the circuit limit to 31 cars and I do know of a company quite close to your hearts that run at that limit.

jj · Post by jj » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:08 am

Whether or not your days, or anyone elses days for that matter, are accredited by MSA is not what would stop me from doing another javelin trackday (i had booked and paid for EF but had to cancel as I changed cars that weekend).

The issue as I have understood it is that Phil couldnt do the trackday, and you would not refund his money or give him a credit.

Sure, I bet its in your T&C`s that you can do this, but its not really fair in my opinion.

Gareth · Post by **Gareth** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:12 am

Colin, can you not push for another trackday at East Fortune?
I prefer it to KH.
I know you had all the complaints from local residents complaining of noise.