Spoke too soon? S1 odd noise...

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Sun May 20, 2007 8:23 pm

After getting the car started yesterday, Bob & I left it ticking over for a good 20 minutes, just to burn off the oil and crap from the manifold etc. When we inspected it after, everything was fine, ticking over nicely and revved fine...

Went and got a new battery form Halfrauds this morning, fitted it and started her up... first turn of the key and she fired into life, even with just the charge that was already in the battery. Cool

or so I thought...

Took the roof off and got ready for a wee blast up the drive and back (no MOT so thought it best to stay off the main roads)...

Jumped in the drivers seat, belt on, car had been ticking over for a good 5 minutes, into 1st gear, pulled away, moved about a cars length then cut out..

Remembering what Bob and I had covered yesterday, I retraced our steps, inspecting all we did yesterday. Everything checked out...

Now i'm back to where we were yesterday, i.e. plenty of electrical life to all the right bits, but with the following symptoms:

1. Crossing the starter poles spins the starter but it doesn't engage with the flywheel.
2. The fuel pump does not prime when ignition is turned on.
3. Car will not crank from the key.
4. The sensor on the top of the fuel rail/intake manifold makes some wierd noises now when ignition is on (fluttering noises??) - This is new or at least we didn't notice it yesterday....
5. She will start first time and tick over fine - when she works... although
6. If you try to rev 'hard' just after she's started form cold, she will cut out, almost like not enough fuel, but this goes after 20-30 seconds of ticking over and you can rev plenty hard with no side effects.. maybe linked with #4?

I was thinking it could be the crank sensor - I took it out and cleaned it, but no difference.
Could the sensor (thing

) on the intake manifold be goosed?

Help?!

Cheers,
Iain

robin · Post by **robin** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:58 pm

I assume you dried out the distributor cap yesterday and that the HT leads are all checked out?

The sensor on top of the intake is not a sensor, it's the IACV (Idle Air Control Valve). It should make a fluttering noise when you turn ignition on and off - it's the ECU banging the stepper motor off the end stop to make sure it knows where it is.

The fuel pump won't prime on the ignition unless you wait a while after turning off before turning on (If you listen carefully you'll hear the MFRU click about 15-20s after turning off the ignition).

I think you have at least two failure modes here - dodgy immobiliser relay and something causing fuel starvation - perhaps they are the same root cause - have you actually bypassed the immobiliser relay already - now might be the time to do that.

Cheers,
Robin

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:03 am

Yup, we bypassed the immobiliser on Saturday A-A, B-B like you said, and we tried Bobs MFRU in case it was that, no difference.

Should the fluttering noise on the IACV continue? It keeps going, erratically until I turn the ignition off.

We didn't dry off the distributoir, but once she was ruinning we left her about 20 minutes ticking over, so I would have thought that would have been enough time for the heat to dry the distributor out?

HT leads are all to the right plugs etc, and are brand new Magnecor ones, plus it's a new coil.

The fuel pump does not prime even after being left to reset...

So strange as it ticked over fine yesterday, and could be revved (once warm) with no problems.. it only cut out when I moved forward

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:55 am

IACV flutters quite alot sometimes (Well mine does!) Have you done the ECU reste thing, ign on throttle to floor 5 times, ign off? Got to be worth a try!

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:30 am

That's not going to make the fuel pump prime, though.

When you turn the ignition on for the first time after leaving it switched off for a while, do you hear the fuel pump relay click out after 5-10s (i.e. after the normal priming period)?

If so, that means the ECU wants to prime the pump but the pump isn't running.

If you don't, it means the ECU doesn't want to prime the pump and so the problem lies with the ECU (or wiring around the ECU).

Based on what you reply I will put together a check list for how to trace back the wiring - I am pretty sure that's what your problem is going to be, now.

Cheers,
Robin

BTW - neither the spark plug wells nor the distributor really dry out once wet - they are supposed to be weather proof and so once water gets in, it might boil, but a lot of it won't escape and so condenses on the surfaces again once cold.

Cheers,
Robin

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:36 am

Get it hot then pull off the plug leads?

Robins on the case, won't be long...

Robin, Jedi Master wrote:Patience young padawan, patience....

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:49 am

Thanks Robin,

Where is the fuel pump relay? Is it one in the front inspection bay? If so, I haven't listened for it clicking but will do tonight when I get back as it will almost certainly take 2 people.

I'll post up and let you know.

Cheers,
Iain

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 am

MFRU does the fuel pump IIRC, you should hear it in the cabin (If nothing else is working

)

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:11 am

RICHARDHUMBLE wrote:MFRU does the fuel pump IIRC, you should hear it in the cabin (If nothing else is working )

MFRU is in the engine compartment on mine, next to the ECU, so can't hear that in the cabin...

The MFRU clicks when ignition is switched on, even when the pump doesn't prime... we tried that on Saturday but I had my hand on the MFRU and my head in the boot..

Is that the fuel pump relay?

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:15 am

robin wrote: BTW - neither the spark plug wells nor the distributor really dry out once wet - they are supposed to be weather proof and so once water gets in, it might boil, but a lot of it won't escape and so condenses on the surfaces again once cold.

Cheers,
Robin

The spark plug wells are probably clear now as we had all 4 plugs out to clean, but I will take the dist cap off tonight and clean and dry...

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:21 am

Knackered pump / pump wiring perhaps. Have you heared the pump recently?

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:37 am

RICHARDHUMBLE wrote:Knackered pump / pump wiring perhaps. Have you heared the pump recently?

She was running fine on Saturday for 20 minutes+ and on Sunday for at least another 10 minutes...

It's intermittent which points to wiring...?

timmsky · Post by **timmsky** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:41 am

robin wrote:That's not going to make the fuel pump prime, though.

When you turn the ignition on for the first time after leaving it switched off for a while, do you hear the fuel pump relay click out after 5-10s (i.e. after the normal priming period)?

If so, that means the ECU wants to prime the pump but the pump isn't running.

If you don't, it means the ECU doesn't want to prime the pump and so the problem lies with the ECU (or wiring around the ECU).

Cheers,
Robin

Another thought on this - on Staurday, Bob and I checked fuel feed. Taking the fuel pipe off the rail intake, when the pump did it's prime, the fuel shot out under a lot of pressure.. then when cranking the fuel was coming out in regular spurts, but nothing like the pressure on the initial prime... then, whent he ignition was turned off, the pump gave a final burst, like the first.. normal??

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:49 am

Yes, the fuel pump relay is part of the MFRU - you should be able to hear it from inside the cabin, but if you cannot, you should be able to turn off, wait for the clunk of the MFRU main relay (which powers the ECU, injectors, ignition, stepper motor, etc) then turn back on to run position (don't try and turn the starter motor - that will confuse things). You should hear one big clunk straight away (that's the main & fuel pump relays being pulled in) and then another clunk 5-10s later (that's the fuel pump relay being released).

You will also hear the stepper motor moving about - if you want to eliminate that as a source of noise, simply pop the electrical connector off the back of the IACV before you start.

Also make sure your hifi is powered off (i.e. it remembers it is off when you turn the ignition on) and make sure all the lights are off - there are sometimes relays in the hifi and there are deffo relays associated with the lights.

WRT ignition stuff:

The HT centre lead on the distributer cap should be properly routed through the clip in the bracket hanging off the lower left bolt of the throttle body as you look into it. It should then run to the coil without touching anything - I recently saw a car where this was not the case and the HT lead had been worn down and was arcing under load.

Cheers,
Robin

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:53 am

timmsky wrote: Another thought on this - on Staurday, Bob and I checked fuel feed. Taking the fuel pipe off the rail intake, when the pump did it's prime, the fuel shot out under a lot of pressure.. then when cranking the fuel was coming out in regular spurts, but nothing like the pressure on the initial prime... then, whent he ignition was turned off, the pump gave a final burst, like the first.. normal??

During cranking the battery voltage will drop quite a lot - check voltage at battery terminals and at the starter motor while cranking. Lower battery voltage means lower fuel pressure - the pump is designed to run on 14.5v or so - that being the alternator voltage.

The death spurt is probably normal - the ECU won't stop the fuel pump until it sees the engine stopped for a couple of seconds. The ECU doesn't power down immediately on ignition off.

Cheers,
Robin