Engine breakdown - HELP!!!!!!

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Mel
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Engine breakdown - HELP!!!!!!

Post by Mel » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:27 am

Hey,

Yesterday I was driving along, not in bad traffic or anythin to cause this and my elise started overheating. I stop the car and it was 108 on the temp gauge! Steam was coming outta the back so i open her up and water was p1shing everywhere. I could smell oil or water burning off as well. Called the rac cos thought it was somethin bad like the head gasket. Rac man said it was bad and that it was my engine that had blown. But he did admit he didnt know bout loutus's. I've not fried the engine as the cables etc aint melted. The car just got serviced and mot'd a couple of months ago at murray. And the car has only done a genuine 12k. Its a rover engine and I've been advised since this happened they are prone to blowing in loutus's. Can any1 help? Is this usually the case with these engines after 12k, should murray have noticed this in my service and if the worst is true how much will a new engine cost fitted and any advice where to go for one! Sorry for the hundred questions am just a novice with my car as only had it since september. :cry: Thanks very much x

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thinfourth
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Post by thinfourth » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:00 am

Sounds like head gasket lunched. So probably head off maybe a light skim and then check the liner heights and replace.

No need to panic

Question is do you want to do the spannering yourself or get someone else to do it.

Unlikely to be completely dead engine as that tends to be a bit more spectacular

Someone more knowledgeable then myself will be along shortly

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Mel
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Post by Mel » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:27 am

Thanks very much. I was hoping it was just the head gasket. The RAC guy was trying to say it was a 5k job, which u can imagine was a bit sore to hear. Def dont think am up for doin the job myself. Dont think al be taking it to Murray either as the last few times I've been there they see the young girl and try and bull sh1t me. Any1 had this trouble too? x

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Novice Racer
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Post by Novice Racer » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:16 pm

Does sound like the HG. The stories of HGF with K-series engines are over-hyped. My understanding is that it seems to be fractionally more likely with the K than other engines, but nobody knows how much more, nor is it predictable if and when it will happen. As far as I can establish, some have had HGF when there are only a few thousand miles on the clock and others have never had HGF after 50 or 60 thousand miles.

Just the luck of the draw, really. It is not the engine that's the problem, but the HG which seems to have been of poor quality. There are tell tale signs of HGF and unproven methods to help this happening and others with more knowledge than me have debated this before, however, this will obviously not be of help in the immediate future.

Most decent garages will repair HGF and, if they know anything about the K-series, should put in a better HG. If the failure has gone un-noticed and the car driven for long hot periods with early HGF, this can warp the aluminium head, meaning that this would need skimmed. However, if you have not noticed any problems with coolant loss/colour change, milky looking oil, unexplained high temps when running or misfires, this makes long-standing failure less likely. However, I would qualify this by saying that there may be no discernable signs of early failure.

All in all, HGF repair parts and labour should be around £500-600 depending on the garage, with extra for head skimming (not sure how much). Cries of "new engine" by the RAC shows how little they understand about these cars (see previous posts about RAC/AA recovery and towing using undercarriage rather than towing eyes etc) which have garden-variety rover or toyota engines in most cases.

Edinburgh Sports Cars in Dalkeith have done a few of these on Elises. Not sure about other garages. Big question is where has the car been recovered to? Dan at Jude performance has a good reputation, but is based in Newcastle. However, I know he has recovered cars from us lot before and is the safest bet for good quality work at a reasonable price (even including recovery).

If the car is in warranty, obviously use MMC, but AVOID AT ALL COSTS IF NOT IN WARRANTY. Plenty of horror stories about VERY VERY expensive bills for simple work (ie 3 times the labour rate of other good Edinburgh garages) which is done badly. For example, had my alarm box replaced. Left garage £600 poorer and on the bypass noticed one of my dashboard vents was broken - when I fiddled around in disbelief, the whole dash came of into the passeger seat at 70 MPH :shock: .

Hope that helps.

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tenkfeet
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Post by tenkfeet » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:58 pm

Was the water coming out of the expansion tank or somewhere else ? Sure a pipe has not just leaked ?

Can you fill up the system with water and see what happens ?
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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:01 pm

What he said.

Head gasket with steel dowels is ~£40
Change cambelt at the same time (May as well) ~£40
Tensioner ~£25
Waterpump if you want £?
Ancillaries, oil, coolant, etc ~£50
Head skim (might not be needed) ~£100? (Ask Stu160 on here see what he charges)
About 3/4 (As in three quarters!) of a days labour probably

John Reid, Shug and me changed my head over in just over a day but it would be quicker next time.

Hope you get it sorted soon :)

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:06 pm

tenkfeet wrote:Was the water coming out of the expansion tank or somewhere else ? Sure a pipe has not just leaked ?

Can you fill up the system with water and see what happens ?
Fair point there. Could just be a pipe gone or even the expansion tank split. even just the (£3) cap.
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Post by r055 » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:07 pm

RICHARDHUMBLE wrote:
tenkfeet wrote:Was the water coming out of the expansion tank or somewhere else ? Sure a pipe has not just leaked ?

Can you fill up the system with water and see what happens ?
Fair point there. Could just be a pipe gone or even the expansion tank split. even just the (£3) cap.
could be, but you would hope that RAC would have picked up on this? :?
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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:12 pm

If he reckons a K series is £5k I would not put that much faith in him!

Would have been too late by then anyway as the engine would be cold and the water gone. A refill *might* have picked up a leak in part of the system but without running the engine it would never get right round the system to find out.

I sincerely hope he didn't run it to find out!

Mel: what does the oil look like? Is it creamy or greeny black? Also check the oil filler cap for mayonnaise like gunk. Both Head Gasket giveaways.
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thinfourth
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Post by thinfourth » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:21 pm

5K it could cost that

VHPD head, forged pistons, nice crank and rods, silly cams etc

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Sanjøy
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Post by Sanjøy » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:33 pm

Where in the burg are you ? I am sure there will be knowledgable peeps on the list that will swing by and do an eyes over to confirm.

Poor show from the RAC, AA the way fwd and we even have our own Patrolman! BTW AA Part & Labour warrenty would cover this and for £50 pa.

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robin
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Post by robin » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:38 pm

I wouldn't jump to assume it's HGF on the data you have - best get someone who knows what they are looking for to check it out first.

The expansion tank cap failing is common and can result in much the same symptoms.

If the coolant was actually coming out from between the head and the block then HGF is guaranteed.

If it was coming out from the expansion tank cap then it's 50/50.

If it was coming out from a pipe then there is no chance of HGF.

You mention oil burning smell too - if you have oil and coolant leaking it has to be coming from the head/block.

There are plenty of second hand engines out there, so even if it's catastrophic failure, it won't cost you that much to get it fixed, especially if you take it to a specialist rather than the dealer.

I would avoid driving the car now, though, until diagnosed, as you may not have done any damage yet, but could easily do some if you attempt to start the engine with the bores full of coolant or oil (these don't compress and you can break the engine in a big way doing this).

If you do want to run the engine you should remove the spark plugs first to allow any trapped coolant/oil to be spat out the top.

Cheers,
Robin
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Mel
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Post by Mel » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:57 pm

Thanks very much every1 for your help. Much appreciated.

The oil doesnt have water in it, all seems fine with that. Think the water is emulsifying tho!
I thought it might've been a pipe too but think the water was coming outta the engine at the side as well. U could see on the right hand side of the car behind the engine that water had been hitting there, since it had left a green sort of stain from the anti-freeze!
He did run the car a few times after filling it up with water, and the water just ran out! Is it really bad news he ran it a few times. I never really thought of that when he started it that he was prob doin more damage to the engine!!

Am at Davie Mains in Edinburgh! Heard theres a good garage on ferry road behind howard johnston that deals alot with rover, some1 suggested gettin their opinion!
x

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robin
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Post by robin » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:17 am

He shouldn't have run the engine without first checking the bores are clear; however, if there was no sickening thud from the engine when it was cranking then you're probably OK :-)

You need to ascertain where the water is coming out - can you take a picture and draw on it where you could see water coming out? If not, I am just down the road from you and could pop over to have a look later tonight.


Cheers,
Robin
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r10crw
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Post by r10crw » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:52 am

If its coming out at the exhaust side between cylinders 1 and 2 then its the same as what happened to me( on the vhpd). Was probably head shuffle and very common between these cylinders, mostly caused though the plastic dowels not being steel. Changing the head is not as difficult as you think as long as you got guys that can check in on you regularly making sure things are as they should be. Do you need the car or can it stay of the road for around two weeks? whilst the heads away getting checked etc?,
Cheers Craig

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