experiences of VHPD, potentially with TT230

[_ali]

Hi,

I'm looking into options to increase the power in my currently standard 120bhp S2 ST, ideally by quite a bit.

As much as I'd love a Honda transplant I can't really justify spending that amount of cash on the car just now, so I'm looking for cheaper options.

I've considered getting something like the DVA 160 or 180bhp kit fitted but my engine has already covered 85k miles, should that be putting me off upgrading it rather than buying a lower mileage engine and using that as a base?

I've been put in touch with a lad selling a VHPD engine + emerald, rebuilt 10k miles ago with gas flowed and ported head and verniers. Would it be crazy to think that I could run that engine as a daily driver? I wouldn't so much mind 30k rebuilds if it was reliable in between...opinions?

There is also the option of a TT230 supercharger (and low compression pistons) with this engine - I've read mixed reports on this upgrade; several people saying that they've ran them for 50k miles with no problems and other people (possibly without first hand experience?) suggesting they are somewhat grenade-like. Does anyone here have an opinion on this, particularly in conjunction with the VHPD?

Thanks in advance for any info/suggestions!

cheers
ali

[campbell]

Ali,

Others better qualified than me will comment on the specific technical details of what you are considering.

However points I'd raise are:

- by the time you get the new K together and installed and maintained in future, a Honda transplant may not be so far off financially, and for 200bhp may be considered better value for money and much more robust in the long term

- what makes you so sure you want to increase from 120bhp by "potentially quite a bit"?


Campbell
(probably around 150bhp which feels just right!)

[Mikie711]

I think, although it hasn't been done AFAIA that pound for pound a Toyota transplant would be the way ahead. Any of the bespoke Honda conversions have an inherent drive shaft problem, all to do with the angle they sit at as the engine won't locate low enough. A new sub frame from an S2 and Toyota 2ZZ - GE engine is a lot cheaper. The engine, gearbox and ECU could be had for about £2000 add to that the subframe, wiring loom and exhaust of your choice and away you go. Would take a bit of work but you would have a unique, at the moment, Elise with a much more trouble free install. I looked long and hard at the Honda route before tuning my car and after speaking to Malcolm at MSAR who races one, decided it was just to much money for a compromised install.
I am suprised that someone like Sinclairs hasn't looked at offering the Toyota transplant rather than the Honda, perhaps they have to much time and money invested in the Honda route to be able to change.
This of course is only my opinion and I am sure one of the honda boys will be along to sing it's praises but I which ever route you go it's not going to be cheap or trouble free. A tuned K series will, over time be a pain in the arse requiring a fair amount of TLC on a regular basis. The Honda will be reliable but you will need to buy drive shafts now and again.
Best and cheapest route is sell the S1/S2 K series car and buy a Toyota powered car. Will all cost the same at the end of the day.

[_ali]

Thanks for the replies.

Campbell - you might be right, perhaps I should be content with less power - does 150 really feel much quicker than 120 though?

I did consider selling and buying an exige/111r but other than the cosmetics (which would hurt the resale price) my car is pretty good - nitrons, toe links, pagids/braided hoses, alu rad, removable steering wheel etc...

Mikie - you make the toyota route sound very easy Is it really just a case of subframe, engine/gearbox and ecu? It would drop straight into the engine bay without clam modifications? How about the radiator etc?

ali

[robin]

Unless you're very handy with the spanners and are a bit of a mechanical engineer I would avoid the DIY engine transplant route - the little bits and pieces will cost as much again in $ terms and more in time terms than going one of the established routes.

If the VHPD you're looking at is from an S1 190 or S1 Exige it won't fit in your engine bay unless you're prepared to cut a pretty big hole in the boot wall. You will then need to either cut the loom up and fit an emerald or get an S2 190 ECU and then do a bit of rewiring.

If the prospect of 30K rebuilds doesn't worry you, why not just rebuild the engine you've got, get the head sorted with bigger valves and some good cams, 4:2:1 flexi or better 4:1 solid narrow bore manifold. If you don't fit the cams the standard ECU will sort of run that setup; if you do fit the cams you'll be needing an ECU to make it all work - but you were looking at that with the VHPD route also. Will make 170BHP easily and with some careful mapping should remain reasonably well mannered as a daily driver to boot.

The head work will be ~1K-1.5K depending on how much you go for and what cams you choose. Manifold is about another 400. ECU is about 700+mapping, say about 1K. Rebuilding the engine should be less than 1K and will then last another 100K road miles or less if used at the rev limiter a lot.

If the VHPD you're looking at is the S2 190 type, complete with ECU and engine loom, it's a reasonable alternate to the DIY tune up option.

Cheers,
Robin

[Mikie711]

I didn't intend to make it sound easy. In fact none of the options are particularly easy, to me it just makes more sense to use an engine that fits the car rather than one that doesn't. You would probably need wishbones and rear hubs as well to keep the original driveshafts, from the toyota that is.
Still think the easiest option is sell your car and buy a S2 Toyota Elise if you were think of spend circa £10k going the Honda route.
Agree with Robin that if you want to get more power using your own engine is probably the simplest way to do it and most cost effective and you will know what you've got rather than buy someone else's bundle of grief.

[hiscot]

A vhpd engine is fetching good money these days , if its the right price snap it up
even if you dont use the vhpd it will give you a good head cams solid buckets t bods and manifold ect ect to work with
a s1 190 is a straight fit into a s1 ,as it uses a dizzy and the same wiring harness and plugs as a std s1 ( i have a S1 190 engine )
exige used a differant harness but is do able
a tt230 supercharger bolted to the vhpd makes the TT260 however a real TT260 is a massive re design and stronger rebuild i expect you will have problems bolting these two together
a tt230 , they are very fast ( as or more than a honda ) and well sorted without issues now days
at your miles i would look to either a rebuild not cheap or a s/h low miles bottom end, but to tune you will still require quite a lot of parts that the vhpd can give
a 180 bhp with t bods on a std b/end close box is a huge improvement over a 120 (but as robin said t bods require boot space )
my choice put the vhpd in when or if it requires a refresh upgrade to a off shelf 1.9 ( maybe a new one out next year )

[philthy]

Any chance you could point me in the direction of the VHPD for sale?

Im thinking of replacing mine instead of rebuilding it.

[Shug]

Cheap way to do it

[campbell]

does 150 really feel much quicker than 120 though?

Yes.

Whilst in raw arithmetic it's 25% more power (albeit in real terms, 1.8 K engines are often nearer 130bhp in std trim so more like just 15%), the effect is concentrated at the top of the rev range so feels much more.

It is no coincidence that Lotus' former chief handling engineer Dave Minter said the Sport 135 upgrade created the Elise they always wanted to produce from the start. Just the right amount of power...not too little...not too much...and that Evo mag amongst others have commented that the current 140bhp Elise S is also "just right". Careful what you wish for!

The thing is that it depends what you use the car for:

- general driving, backroad and m-way = potentially pointless to upgrade at all

- backroad driving with purpose and some trackdays = worth a mild upgrade to unleash some extra grunt

- trackday focus = worth an expensive upgrade to let you get the most out of your skills and avoid the traffic!

Gotta remember that in road conditions, very little will separate a 120bhp Elise from a 200bhp one point to point driven by the same driver, because you can't maximise the extra power advantage * and the cars all go around corners at the same v-max. Although an Exige might have a slight aero advantage if you are really brave.

There is some benefit from supercharged routes because of the wallop of lower-rev torque these bring, however.

The old adage remains...upgrade the driver first, and then the car It is truly eye-watering what a very skilled driver can get out of a std Elise on road or track, versus what even an a fairly good one can.


* - well perhaps you can but this is going to involve license-losing speeds and some serious question marks over reaction times and the engineering of the roads being able to cope with what you and the car are throwing at them...IMHO!

[Shug]

With Campbell. From personal experience - my previous engine should have been ITRO 180-190 bhp but torque wasn't increased much from standard - hence not actually being that much quicker on the road (standard ported head with larger valves, BP285H cams and TBs). When you could open it up, it was superb, as it revved and revved.

Having driven lots of Elises now, I'd be sorely tempted in your case to stick on a well-ported head and keep the standard cams and ECU. Should get it to the 150-160bhp bracket with a little luck and some attention to detail. Will make it feel like it can breathe properly.

From there, should you decide to, there are bolt-on options (cams, TB's and necessarily, an ECU to control it) to go up to the sort of 170-180bhp regions (although the bottom end becomes a weak point here)

IME, cammy tuned engines don't pull from low-down like you think they should, given the figures - it's more about the feel that they just don't run out of puff with revs.

My current compromise is a VVC engine with TBs, Emerald and 421 manifold and several peeps who have driven it comment on the torque - it should be chucking out ITRO 180bhp or just under, but it feels faster on the road than my old cammy one did.