Spoke too soon? S1 odd noise...

[robin]

Iain,

Email me the setup.exe to robin@iddon.no-ip.com - I don't have the code on my laptop.

The map has little or no effect on starting (which is quite car specific, even on the same engine tune) and doesn't really affect the ECU configuration (i.e. you could set the injector configuration wrong, load a standard S1 map and it wouldn't revert the injector configuration to the correct setting) - if it's properly configured, it will run the engine on any cams at 2-3K RPM part throttle (it probably won't start the engine on zero throttle without significant mapping work).

It's not clear to me why you wouldn't now check that the 5AS code is being received by the ECU as this is the last and final thing that will stop the MEMS running the engine.

If that code is being received then plug the MEMS back in and we need to start looking at mechanical faults, having apparently cleared all the electrical ones (if they ever existed!). Stuff along the lines of Fd's postings (cam timing, compression, etc).

If that code is not being received, find the break in the wire, fix it, and bingo.

There is no point making the emerald actually work - the best it can do is significantly worse than the MEMS in most respects (on a standard engine). It was never my intention for you to try and use the emerald to run the engine - remember I was suggesting use of an oscilloscope to check for the code, you didn't have one, so we had to improvise with the emerald which has a way of showing that the code has been received.

Cheers,
Robin

[timmsky]

Thanks Lawrence,

Previously I checked something similar to the above, when the cam pulley timing markes were aligned as per the service manual, i.e. "Exhaust" horizontal with the line on the opposing pulley, the pistons were as follows:
#1 - low
#2 - high
#3 - high
#4 - low

As I cannot see the indent on the bottom pulley I crawled under the car with the tray off and used the sense of touch to feel for an indent but there isn't one. Hence my Q about the billet pulley from Geary not having a mark.
As Robin has suggested, I need to take the bottom section apart to see the pulley.

If the above points to something being way out, i'll check that first, but if that's normal then i'll also look at the Emerald map.

Should I be using a std S1 map then or will the S160 map suffice?

Cheers,
Iain

[Lawrence]

Thanks Lwrence,

Previously I checked something similar to the above, when the cam pulley timing markes were aligned as per the service manual, i.e. "Exhaust" horizontal with the line on the opposing pulley, the pistons were as follows:
#1 - low
#2 - high
#3 - high
#4 - low


Should I be using a std S1 map then or will the S160 map suffice?

Cheers,
Iain

That's it then retime the cams as the bottom pulley is wrong

Maps make no differnce to starting

[fd]

Thanks Lwrence,

Previously I checked something similar to the above, when the cam pulley timing markes were aligned as per the service manual, i.e. "Exhaust" horizontal with the line on the opposing pulley, the pistons were as follows:
#1 - low
#2 - high
#3 - high
#4 - low

If that is true the cam/crank timing is miles out and It's certainly possible the engine has been damaged. How you have managed to get from having a running engine to this stage is somewhat beyond me without a belt/tensioner/mechanical failure . . . I have to say I don't believe you . . . until you check it again and take a photo of the cam pulleys in what you think is the correct position.

With inlet pointing at exhaust on the cam pulleys (in a perfectly straight line across both sides of the pulleys) the pistons should all be at equal height.

You now HAVE to check this again and be 100% sure.

I asked about cam timing for a very good reason . . .

As Robin has suggested, I need to take the bottom section apart to see the pulley.

You have NOT yet checked the cam timing properly until you have done this. Removing the ally pulley (which should go straight in the bin and be replaced by a proper rover one incidentally - because it's not just a pulley it's a harmonic dampener for the crank - to stop it BREAKING ! due to vibration harmonics) will also let you check the woodruf key on the crank which may have failed letting the lower pulley turn relative to the crank - which is the only way I can think of for what you are describing.

Fd

[Rich H]

Get some thin rods of the same length, small enough to drop into the bores but long enough to protrude above the cam cover (Something that won't damage thepistons but won't break up! Model shops sell brass rod) so you can see the pistons relative position, as FD says the pistons will all be exactly level when the cam indicators are aligned and this way you can check without taking the pulley to bits.

Have read of the ali pulleys causing problems too

[timmsky]

Thanks Lwrence,

Previously I checked something similar to the above, when the cam pulley timing markes were aligned as per the service manual, i.e. "Exhaust" horizontal with the line on the opposing pulley, the pistons were as follows:
#1 - low
#2 - high
#3 - high
#4 - low

If that is true the cam/crank timing is miles out and It's certainly possible the engine has been damaged. How you have managed to get from having a running engine to this stage is somewhat beyond me without a belt/tensioner/mechanical failure . . . I have to say I don't believe you . . . until you check it again and take a photo of the cam pulleys in what you think is the correct position.

With inlet pointing at exhaust on the cam pulleys (in a perfectly straight line across both sides of the pulleys) the pistons should all be at equal height.

You now HAVE to check this again and be 100% sure.

I asked about cam timing for a very good reason . . .

As Robin has suggested, I need to take the bottom section apart to see the pulley.

You have NOT yet checked the cam timing properly until you have done this. Removing the ally pulley (which should go straight in the bin and be replaced by a proper rover one incidentally - because it's not just a pulley it's a harmonic dampener for the crank - to stop it BREAKING ! due to vibration harmonics) will also let you check the woodruf key on the crank which may have failed letting the lower pulley turn relative to the crank - which is the only way I can think of for what you are describing.

Fd

I'll do my best to get photos, interesting that you think I should bother to lie, but each to their own..

Looking at the cam pulleys only, the timing marks look like this:


It's as I said above, piston #1, i.e. cambelt end, is the same height as #4, but #2 and #3 are higher.

I haven't measured exactly as my screwdriver is not graduated, but i'm guessing this should not be the case.

Interestingly the billet alloy one from Eliseparts was put on after the woodruff key was machined off by the last pulley during it's previous ownership.

Maybe it's done it again and it's slipped, causing it to run before, but not now.
It could have slipped during repeated cranking sufficient to allow it to start, but then the extra load applied by trying to drive the car forward has caused the crank pulley to slip again, resulting in this non-starting?

BTW - I bow to your superior knowledge and do sincerely appreciate the help, but a little less of the sanctimonious barsteward wouldn't go amiss dude, I wasn't born yesterday

Cheers,
Iain

[Rich H]

Pistons should be the same height... Thats why the marks are different to TDC to make sure the clearance on all the pisons and valves is at a maximum. Sounds bad

Can you turn the engine over on the crank bolt, if so do all the pistons and cams move as they should. IIRC the original pulley is steel with a rubber insert (Making it a damper) and another steel pulley on the top but yours is solid ali and is therefore doing a totally different job to the original...

[timmsky]

Pistons should be the same height... Thats why the marks are different to TDC to make sure the clearance on all the pisons and valves is at a maximum. Sounds bad

Can you turn the engine over on the crank bolt, if so do all the pistons and cams move as they should. IIRC the original pulley is steel with a rubber insert (Making it a damper) and another steel pulley on the top but yours is solid ali and is therefore doing a totally different job to the original...

As long as I take the spark plugs out, I can turn it using a socket on each of the camshaft bolts simultaneously.
I know it says in the manual not to use the camshaft bolts, but two sockets on them at the same time halves the loading and i'm only turning a short distance
The pistons change heights as the cams rotate, so there's still a link between them, but it may just be that that link is not as robust when the engine is being cranked off the starter....

I'm going to try to take the crank pulley bolt out tonight as Fd is convinced its that, especially since the pistons are at different heights when they shouldn't be.

If it's been bad, then there's a good chance the valves are fcuked too after hitting the pistons in which case it will be new engine time

Thanks,
Iain

[fd]

I'm not being a sanctimonious barsteward at all (I don't think - but I don't pretend to know what all those really big words mean) . . . but I asked some time ago that you should verify the cam timing and, for whatever reason, you haven't yet (the cams relative to each other are meaningless without the crank reference marks as I'm sure you know). . . now you mention previous woodruf key issues . . . and bingo we may have a cam timing problem and a very simple reason . . . which matches all the symptoms I've already described . . . more than once . . . anyway . . .

When I said I didn't believe you I meant double check it . . . because what you describe is a very uncommon failure . . . however . . . given the last post about the previous key issues . . . let's hope it isn't a slipping lower pulley and if it is let's hope it hasn't slipped enough to grenade the engine . . . you may be lucky . . . you may not . . .

Again . . . get the cam timing fully checked before turning it over any more I can't be any clearer . . . I'll retire and watch from the sidelines now . . . it's probably an immobiliser issue anyway . . .

Fd

[fd]

I'm going to try to take the crank pulley bolt out tonight as Fd is convinced its that, especially since the pistons are at different heights when they shouldn't be.

I'm not convinced of anything at all - only you have all the data to hand, however it was a possibility (that matched the symptoms) that would have been important to discount before turning the engine over any more . . . and may now be a probability given your last posts . . .

Let's hope it isn't . . .

Fd

[Rich H]

Problem with using the cam bolts is that the crank is turned by the pulley not the pully turned by the crank IYKWIM so if you have woodruff problems this could be moving the pulley around the crank a bit more.

Check the pistons are all at the same height then check the timing, before taking things to bits. The pistons should be exactly the same height when the marks are aligned on the cam. This will prove one way or another that there is a timing issue.

[timmsky]

I'm not being a sanctimonious barsteward at all (I don't think - but I don't pretend to know what all those really big words mean) . . . but I asked some time ago that you should verify the cam timing and, for whatever reason, you haven't yet (the cams relative to each other are meaningless without the crank reference marks as I'm sure you know). . .

All comes with being a father, a husband, MD of a business and a not-so-keen gardener... leaves very little free time to tinker and solve

now you mention previous woodruf key issues . . . and bingo we may have a cam timing problem and a very simple reason . . . which matches all the symptoms I've already described . . . more than once . . . anyway . . .

When I said I didn't believe you I meant double check it . . . because what you describe is a very uncommon failure . . . however . . . given the last post about the previous key issues . . . let's hope it isn't a slipping lower pulley and if it is let's hope it hasn't slipped enough to grenade the engine . . . you may be lucky . . . you may not . . .

Will double check everything again and rest assured i'll not be cranking the engine until i'm happy it's not the timing... but I think that will never happen, as it's all pointing that way

Again . . . get the cam timing fully checked before turning it over any more I can't be any clearer . . . I'll retire and watch from the sidelines now . . . it's probably an immobiliser issue anyway . . .

Fd

Immobiliser.... Aye okay

[Lawrence]

Problem with using the cam bolts is that the crank is turned by the pulley not the pully turned by the crank IYKWIM so if you have woodruff problems this could be moving the pulley around the crank a bit more.

That would do it right enough

[timmsky]

Problem with using the cam bolts is that the crank is turned by the pulley not the pully turned by the crank IYKWIM so if you have woodruff problems this could be moving the pulley around the crank a bit more.

That would do it right enough

I think everything is pointing to the crankshaft pulley being loose or misplaced...

At 205Nm torque setting, non-running so it won't go on ramps, with the car parked on gravel so it's dodgy using axle stands, it's going to be interesting trying to get that undone!

[fd]

Just do it one side at a time . . . use a set of drive on ramps under one wheel at a time, take the undertray off first then you can use the proper chassis jacking points at the back . . . it will look scary . . . but is not too dangerous . . . I usually do it in 3 stages . . . left wheel onto ramp at 1/3 height (or a brick say), then the right, then the left at 2/3rd height (or a brise block) . . . etc . . .

If you like danger you can do it all in a oner (I have with my car before) . . . the amount of suspension travel the cars actually have is more than you may ever imagine and having it teetering around on 2 wheels is kinda funny . . . just don't crawl underneath it when it's like that . . .

Fd