Sick 'K' needs help...

The place to "speak geek"
User avatar
offshorematt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Aberdeen

Post by offshorematt » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:48 pm

Apologies for not replying to the last flurry of suggestions - can't believe its nearly five weeks since I last looked properly at this...

Since my last update, I've actually driven the car (7 miles to my parent's garage but its a wee victory). It seems that the non-start problem was actually caused by over fuelling - the new plugs, leads, dizzy and coil appear to have strengthened the spark sufficiently to start the car (although it can still be touch and go - very easily flooded). The car now burns very very rich when its running. If it does flood, it can be started by disconnecting the fuel rail (hence depressurising the system), then reconnecting and cranking again. It seems that the small time it takes to pressure the whole system up is enough for the engine to catch.

So now need to work out what causes over-fuelling bearing in mind I've changed the coolant temperature sender and the manifold temperature sensor (the most obvious suspects) with no effect.
Although I can't remember the full list of MEMS inputs off the top of my head, the only other one that I haven't tried or replaced that would seem pertinent is the Lambda Sensor. I find it hard to believe that it could be so wrong as to increase the fuelling to this level. I would think it would go open loop long before. Or maybe open loop IS horrifically rich (?) but I kind of doubt this is normal...

Other considerations;
1) the fuel is (and was) always fine - I drained the tank and ran the Vectra off it just fine...
2) the new plugs are now getting so sooted up that I can see the starting problem coming back soon. Is there any way to clean plugs? (My dad reckons yes with petrol and rags but he's over sixty and in his day, everything could be repaired with petrol and rags. Or jubilee clips. :wink:)
3) Compression is way low (but fairly even across the cylinders). I know there is oil getting into the bores when it sits for any length of time, but this isn't new and I can't see why it would suddenly effect the fuelling to this extent?

Getting very close to just sticking it into a garage and getting someone else to look at it. May need to mortage the house for that though... :?

User avatar
hiscot
Posts: 757
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 8:56 am
Location: North Scotland

Post by hiscot » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:12 pm

sounds like poss ecu failure to me ( built in map sensor )
the fueling is controlled by map so check water trap /hose ect even for a pin hole
check the coolent /ecu wires plugs ect see if the signal is getting to the ecu and alters by using old ok sender in hot water (plug pins can corrode and the wire can also ,give it a light tug ) (( if sig not getting to ecu it will overfuel ie coldstart will stay on ))
failed lambda is not usually picked up untill mot time but car normanly runs
oil draining looks like valve seals gone hard / worn
failing that
try another ecu
i suspect poss wire corrosion on coolent /ecu plug as tuscan has said giving indicated sensor failure

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Post by robin » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:10 am

We need to differentiate between over fuelling caused by the ECU opening the injectors for too long vs over fuelling caused by either excess fuel pressure or injector problems.

You fitted a swap out fuel rail and FPR IIRC (the one I sent up via Gareth) so we know it isn't directly caused by those. Is it possible the return line to the tank is blocked - I don't think so, because I think you ran the fuel into a bucket at some point. So there isn't that much left to cause "mechanical" over fuelling - I think we're looking for something electrical.

You can eliminate all sensors by unplugging all sensors except the crank position sensor - it's the only one the ECU actually needs to start the engine. You can disconnect the vacuum hose from the MAP too.

What we need is a good running K so we can compare injector pulse widths, etc., using the scope. I'll try and bring one of those with me (a good running K and the scope).

See you next year I hope!

Cheers
Robin

P.S. If Craig hasn't sold his Emerald we can borrow that and use it to verify the basic sensor operation and also check see if we can fix fuelling with it or not - I have a spare MEMS that's yours free of charge, though you will need to get it recoded at a rover dealer or lotus dealer.
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
offshorematt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Aberdeen

Post by offshorematt » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:09 am

I think the "mechanical" overfuelling can be discounted - the FPR, the injectors and the rail have all been changed and the engine runs the same when the return line is bypassed. It is looking much more like an ECU problem... :cry:
If your offer of venturing North still stands Robin, I'd really appreciate any help you can give me...

By the way, what's a "scope"?

User avatar
mac
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:36 pm

Post by mac » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:11 am

An "Oh Silly Scope" :lol:

Show pulses I think.


Cheers



Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

User avatar
offshorematt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Aberdeen

Post by offshorematt » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:14 pm

Aah. You live and learn... :wink:

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Post by robin » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:48 pm

OK I am back - now need to work on a plan to come up - will post once I can figure out when - what sort of days/times work for you?

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
offshorematt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Aberdeen

Post by offshorematt » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:02 pm

Ideally weekends but I've still leave to take so could probably fit in around your movements. My boss is sympathetic to the plight of the Lotus - I'm sure he'll accomodate... :lol:

Gareth
Posts: 4959
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:19 pm
Location: The Moon

Post by Gareth » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:51 pm

This may be of some encouragment. From SELOC:

"Finally got it - Customs here wanted a slice of duty... :-( and it took a few extra days to get here around Xmas. Can't belive how easy it all was. Map from Dave Andrews, unit from Geary.

Fitted it in under an hour, loaded up the map and it started up first time and idled properly straight away. Took it out for a burn and it was great - more torques, nice and clean on acceleration and no missing or kangarooing now the MAP sensor wasn't there anymore....

Very happy I am :-) And if I can fit one - anyone can. One word of warning though - the software came on a floppy disc rather than CD and the connection to the computer isn't USB, which meant we had to use the wife's ancient old lap top with the right serial port connection. Had to find a desktop in town with a floppy to move the software onto a CD. Other than that slight aggro, a brilliant upgrade and I am very happy to have my car better than it was even before the MAP sensor broke.

In short, if you are having unexplained aggro from your engine or want to make the most of mods - change to the Emerald I reckon"

User avatar
mac
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:36 pm

Post by mac » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:08 pm

Shouldn't have to resort to that but I think plugging one in would be helpful from a diagnostic point of view.

I've got a few wee niggles with the Caterham and once it's back in it's new home I'll be borrowing a emerald for a few hours to check input values etc.


Cheers

Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

User avatar
offshorematt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Aberdeen

Post by offshorematt » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:57 am

Is fitting a new ECU (Emerald or Lotus) really as easy as that? Doesn't the immobiliser add complications?

User avatar
Rich H
Posts: 9314
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:11 pm
Location: Preston

Post by Rich H » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:02 am

You can bypass the immobiliser without too much trouble, unfortunatly....
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
2004 Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

User avatar
Shug
Posts: 13835
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:28 pm
Location: Deepest, Darkest Ayrshire

Post by Shug » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:20 am

mac wrote:Shouldn't have to resort to that but I think plugging one in would be helpful from a diagnostic point of view.

I've got a few wee niggles with the Caterham and once it's back in it's new home I'll be borrowing a emerald for a few hours to check input values etc.


Cheers

Mac
Gimme a shout if you haven't got one lined up. Shugmobile has been taken off the road for a couple of months to let me get some sheet sorted.
2010 Honda VFR1200F
1990 Honda VFR400 NC30
2000 Honda VTR1000 SP1
2000 Kawasaki ZX-7R

User avatar
Shug
Posts: 13835
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:28 pm
Location: Deepest, Darkest Ayrshire

Post by Shug » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:22 am

offshorematt wrote:Is fitting a new ECU (Emerald or Lotus) really as easy as that? Doesn't the immobiliser add complications?
Emerald is a peice of p1ss, as it's got an immobiliser learning function - takes all of 30 secs. Doesn't mean you can take an emerald to nick an Elise though, as the immob needs deactivated by the keyfob for the ECU to learn the code.

Lotus one needs reprogrammed (on the S1) or it is, as rich says, possible to bypass if you know what to do.
2010 Honda VFR1200F
1990 Honda VFR400 NC30
2000 Honda VTR1000 SP1
2000 Kawasaki ZX-7R

User avatar
Rich H
Posts: 9314
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:11 pm
Location: Preston

Post by Rich H » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:28 am

All you require is a Paperclip, 38 seconds and Robin I suspect... :D
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
2004 Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

Post Reply