Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

The place to "speak geek"
KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: Honda Conversion

Post by KingK_series » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:42 pm

mikeyb13 wrote: Its obvious from your posts that you know your stuff when it comes to the mechanical side but I'd stay out of the car trading business if I where you.
Also if you think car collectors are going to regard a K-series tuned to 200+ bhp as a standard concourse collectors car then I have to say you are wrong no matter how reliable you claim it is.
No tuned car is regarded as standard no matter how imaginatively it was done.:thumbsup
I disagree

I have worked a lot with Lanzante's doing Adrian Newey's car

they look after incredible machinery - and had many a conversation, about how to keep a car's value

- THE important thing is the no on the block... on obviously the original engine

- have you any idea of how many original Ford GT40s ot Mclaren F1's they have that have been modified by way of suspension, or airboxes race kit etc etc, but the absolute no no is to change the engine or lose the block with the original engine no that is tied to the chassis no .
Last edited by KingK_series on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: Honda Conversion

Post by KingK_series » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:44 pm

mikeyb13 wrote: Its obvious from your posts that you know your stuff when it comes to the mechanical side


It wouldnt be as annoying if you could actually prove your claims, but all anyones seen so far is internet words. If you can build an engine, put it in a car, dyno it, put it up against a Honda then run it for 200k (Tuts) on track and road with only standard servicing I'd buy one.
Then you can come on forums and tell us all how amazing it is :thumbsup

And didn't I show you the touring car engine ?

- I mean really....... how many other K series tuners have got 272bhp and 181lbft on a K with a plenum and single TB?

let alone crap 95 Ron with tame cams and an 8500 limit?

how many do you know have done that with a honda na? = NONE!

In fact how many people in the Lotus engine tuning biz do you know who have worked with a professional team? a pro driver? in a pro series???????/


- however to answer your wish A new thread starting soon on a plenum engined K coming to scotland soon

------ I hope you drive it.....

but this thread was about hubs not engines...........

KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by KingK_series » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:53 pm

tut wrote:Almost certainly.

Whoever changed your last wheel bearing would know, plus they are completely different shapes.

Ali hub

http://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?TBL ... 0&ST=&SC=0

Steel hub.

http://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?TBL ... 0&ST=&SC=0

tut


yes but the bearing is the same Timken 68x38x37

KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by KingK_series » Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:00 pm

Mikie711 wrote:Don't believe everything Deroure quotes for prices especially bits no longer available. An S1 bearing from lotus is nearly that price on it's own. An alloy hub with bearing would have been way more than £76.

Steel hubs are considerably easier to work on , cartridge bearing system is simple and quick to change and more robust. Bearings are more expensive but in general I think the later hubs are an big improvement. That said I have never had a problem with the alloy hubs other than having to heat them and always to remember to use duralac etc.

you are comparing S1 ally/steel to S2steel uprights, and the discussion was about the upright not the bearing bar issues with replacing them.

the steel s1/S2 uprights are the same design, and very poor because they lack the stiffness of the ally hub - look at the upright on an F1 car , or Le Mans - you can see the same ethos in the original S1 ally upright - stiffness is everything.... plus there is a simple bracket to get the toelink into double sheer which you cannot do on the steel - hence seeing several people bend or beak the bolt holding the toelink into the steel hub, and therefore the demand for original ally hubs to replace crap steel ones from people who have been pitched into the kitty litter from this issue.

User avatar
campbell
Posts: 17370
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: West Lothian
Contact:

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by campbell » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:55 pm

So how do I future proof the value of my broadly original S1 when the engine lets go and the block needs changed?

Answers on a postcard everyone.

(Apols in advance for thread drift but if it has mileage I'll start a fresh one :-) )
http://www.rathmhor.com | Coaching, training, consultancy

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by robin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:05 am

Not that I ever sell cars I would expect to leave it as is (i.e. rebuild with your block if required) is probably best value in long run. The sort of person that will care about the engine being 100% standard will also want a standard exhaust, standard interior .... they'll probably even want standard red konis :-)

So the next category after "original spec" is "well maintained and sensible" I think.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by robin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:31 am

you are comparing S1 ally/steel to S2steel uprights, and the discussion was about the upright not the bearing bar issues with replacing them.

the steel s1/S2 uprights are the same design, and very poor because they lack the stiffness of the ally hub - look at the upright on an F1 car , or Le Mans - you can see the same ethos in the original S1 ally upright - stiffness is everything.... plus there is a simple bracket to get the toelink into double sheer which you cannot do on the steel - hence seeing several people bend or beak the bolt holding the toelink into the steel hub, and therefore the demand for original ally hubs to replace crap steel ones from people who have been pitched into the kitty litter from this issue.
The upper plinth bolts also fail fairly regularly with the only solution I've heard being to simply discard them periodically if you're on track a lot; if you take this approach with the outer toe link bolt too, then you're unlikely to break it unless you crash; if you crash something was going to break, and the outer toe link bolt is no worse than anything else. I replace my plinth bolts every other year, and replace any that are found to be under-torqued immediately.

To compare standard S1 alloy uprights with standard S1 steel uprights the bolt is in single shear on both; so unless you were going to fit the uprated toe link kit, the toe link arrangement is the same on both and both will fail/not fail much the same as one another. If you have alloy hubs and you're on track with sticky tyres then you have the option of fitting the uprated toe link kit which is an advantage, I agree.

I don't know much about metallurgy but I would expect the alloy to expand more than steel when hot. So whilst you can use this to your advantage when removing the old bearing, does it not also reduce the friction force on the bearing outer when the hub is properly hot (e.g. when on track with sticky tyres)? In this case the bearing might then shift or spin marginally in the hub and gradually fret away at the bearing tunnel in the hub. As soon as the bearing outer can move, the bearing will fail eventually and you won't be able to fix by replacing bearing. So whilst you can blame the loose bearings on people removing them without heat, you can also blame it on the hubs getting hot, I think.

I've seen this in action at Charade in France (an extreme example as it was a hot day, on an abrasive track, with people using sticky tyres). At the close of play I went around and wobbled the wheels on a load of SE S1 sheds (all old and thus alloy hubs). Each and every one had what appeared to be a loose bearing on several wheels. The next morning they were all tight. I can only assume this is down to the expansion of the hub, as the bearing itself will get tighter when hot, not looser, I think.

Regardless of whether you have alloy or steel you need to check the flanges when you replace the bearing - I've seen a couple of tapered ones, including on a car that is rarely tracked. Again, not knowing much about metallurgy I cannot say that the EP "harder steel" items are better than OEM or not, but given the OEM ones fail, I would fit the harder ones.

So the alloy hubs might be better if (a) you track it a lot (b) probably on sticky tyres (c) you fit the uprated toe link kit (d) you don't mind replacing the hub when the bearing tunnel is damaged. In all other cases the steel hubs are as good and have the advantage of being much harder to damage by hamfisted bearing swappery.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
tut
Barefoot Ninja
Posts: 22975
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Tut End, Glen of Newmill

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by tut » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:14 am

I think that i am on my third hub flange replacement on N3, either from tapering or ridging.

tut

User avatar
campbell
Posts: 17370
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: West Lothian
Contact:

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by campbell » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:00 pm

robin wrote:Not that I ever sell cars I would expect to leave it as is (i.e. rebuild with your block if required) is probably best value in long run.
However the block is potentially the source of a tiny coolant leak, according our tame specialist technicians, in which case the question will be can that be repaired or not. If not, it's a new block...
http://www.rathmhor.com | Coaching, training, consultancy

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by robin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:38 pm

I'm sure we can find one of those - I have one lying around which you're welcome to, for example.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
campbell
Posts: 17370
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: West Lothian
Contact:

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by campbell » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 pm

LOL. Most kind. Well lets hope it's not needed toooooo soon. UJI off for annual pampering chez Murray Lotus later this week, so lets see what Dr Craig & The Medics have to say first!
http://www.rathmhor.com | Coaching, training, consultancy

woody
Posts: 5637
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Location: Southside Triangle

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by woody » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:23 pm

New blocks are only circa £300 on RimmerBros just now anyway. Worth buying for stock Campbell ;)

User avatar
campbell
Posts: 17370
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: West Lothian
Contact:

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by campbell » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:28 pm

Could be right there, Woody.

I will consult the build engineers and report back...
http://www.rathmhor.com | Coaching, training, consultancy

User avatar
robin
Jedi Master
Posts: 10546
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by robin » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:29 am

I don't know how much truth there is in this, but people say (and I am aware that there is a lot of myth and folklore) that a block that's been used is a better starting point, provided there is no damage to it. The rationale is that you're going to get the liner heights set before you build the engine, and that a new block will deform over some period of heat cycling/load until it settles into its "final" shape. So best to deck a block that's settled rather than a brand new one. Now is this true? I don't know for sure because I don't know enough about what normal temperature range heat cycling does to the alloy used in the block.

That said there are clear examples of people using brand new blocks without problems so clearly not guaranteed to fail either.

Cheers,
Robin
I is in your loomz nibblin ur wirez
#bemoretut

User avatar
Sanjøy
Posts: 8831
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Edinburgh Hamptons

Re: Alloy vs Steel uprights on S1

Post by Sanjøy » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:29 am

I think this oneis still available.
W213 All Terrain

Post Reply