Sick 'K' needs help...
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offshorematt
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
- Location: Aberdeen
Really appreciate the comments guys. Sorry haven't commented earlier but v.heavy night last night and been suffering through a hangover all day... 
Richard - as Gareth says, no Cat so not that.
Gareth - you lend me £7500 and I'll book the Audi conversion tomorrow...
Robin - you commented that the Crank Shaft sensor would mean no spark? If it was giving a spurious reading though, is it possible its sparking on the wrong cylinder on each revolution? I like the sound of the injector plug being dodgy but the AA guy checked the injectors and said they were clicking signifying they were working ok. I'll certainly get the plug off and checked anyway.
Mac - number 1 spark plug was taken out rather than a spare used. No expert but it didn't look wrecked. Bit sooty but I'm burning oil anyway so I'd expect that (only 1litre/1000miles when getting after it). They're not wet so I'd assume it wasn't HGF. Also all the fluid levels remained stationary and as I said no mayo to be seen. Hopefully i can discount that
The plug Gareth was talking about was the king lead and that was checked twice with apparently a good spark there and at the spark plug (although obviously I didn't see it myself as I was cranking the engine
To sum up, it appears there is a spark and there is fuel. Bad petrol is not looking like such a joke now. As Tut said, it was initially almost starting with lots of throttle but during the 5 1/2 hours of waiting on recovery I tried it a dozen times - it quicky stopped even doing that. Using up the last of the good fuel? Would explain the misfire at low revs... interestingly, I put in 28litres of Super U/L to fill the tank and it was reading 26litres when it cr4pped out...hard to believe the two fuels would pretty much 'layer' like that though but might explain why the drive from Abz to Banchory was fine...
Just realised that I forgot to process the order for the crankshaft sensor so not much I can do this weekend. I'll get the dizzy back off and change the rotor arm (couldn't be ersed the other night doing it by torchlight). Also think I'll drain the tank and try a fiver of new fuel to see what happens. I guess I can pretty much empty the fuel lines too by disconnecting at the fuel filter?
After that it sounds like a replace and try policy but that will be really expensive and very time consuming. Hoping to try and reduce the number of variables with this thread...
The real downside (apart from the cost) is that I have to drive a Vectra to work. Regular stalls, grabby brakes, broken spring and this morning water started coming out of the interior light. Not my car so I don't care - reminds me why I like sports cars though
Richard - as Gareth says, no Cat so not that.
Gareth - you lend me £7500 and I'll book the Audi conversion tomorrow...
Robin - you commented that the Crank Shaft sensor would mean no spark? If it was giving a spurious reading though, is it possible its sparking on the wrong cylinder on each revolution? I like the sound of the injector plug being dodgy but the AA guy checked the injectors and said they were clicking signifying they were working ok. I'll certainly get the plug off and checked anyway.
Mac - number 1 spark plug was taken out rather than a spare used. No expert but it didn't look wrecked. Bit sooty but I'm burning oil anyway so I'd expect that (only 1litre/1000miles when getting after it). They're not wet so I'd assume it wasn't HGF. Also all the fluid levels remained stationary and as I said no mayo to be seen. Hopefully i can discount that
The plug Gareth was talking about was the king lead and that was checked twice with apparently a good spark there and at the spark plug (although obviously I didn't see it myself as I was cranking the engine
To sum up, it appears there is a spark and there is fuel. Bad petrol is not looking like such a joke now. As Tut said, it was initially almost starting with lots of throttle but during the 5 1/2 hours of waiting on recovery I tried it a dozen times - it quicky stopped even doing that. Using up the last of the good fuel? Would explain the misfire at low revs... interestingly, I put in 28litres of Super U/L to fill the tank and it was reading 26litres when it cr4pped out...hard to believe the two fuels would pretty much 'layer' like that though but might explain why the drive from Abz to Banchory was fine...
Just realised that I forgot to process the order for the crankshaft sensor so not much I can do this weekend. I'll get the dizzy back off and change the rotor arm (couldn't be ersed the other night doing it by torchlight). Also think I'll drain the tank and try a fiver of new fuel to see what happens. I guess I can pretty much empty the fuel lines too by disconnecting at the fuel filter?
After that it sounds like a replace and try policy but that will be really expensive and very time consuming. Hoping to try and reduce the number of variables with this thread...
The real downside (apart from the cost) is that I have to drive a Vectra to work. Regular stalls, grabby brakes, broken spring and this morning water started coming out of the interior light. Not my car so I don't care - reminds me why I like sports cars though
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offshorematt
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
- Location: Aberdeen
I agree about the low likelihood of the fuel but its an easy check...
I had a suggestion that my timing belt may have slipped (tensioner loose or broken tooth on the belt). If the timing is a couple of degrees out it could explain the non starting without having eaten the engine? I'm going to take a look at my belt tomorrow anyway weather permitting...
I had a suggestion that my timing belt may have slipped (tensioner loose or broken tooth on the belt). If the timing is a couple of degrees out it could explain the non starting without having eaten the engine? I'm going to take a look at my belt tomorrow anyway weather permitting...
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offshorematt
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
- Location: Aberdeen
Mekon my ar$e ...
Anyway, the crank position sensor needs to present exactly the correct pattern before the ECU thinks about believing it. There are 36 teeth on the flywheel, except there are some that are missing - the CPS produces a morse-code like pattern of 30-odd short pulses and a couple of longer pulses; these all the ECU to work out where TDC is ... in my experience the CPS is either OK or it isn't; intermittent function rapidly becomes no function and the ECU wouldn't spark the engine if it thought it wasn't seeing TDC properly.
My money is still on fuelling. I think it would be worth seeing whether any fuel is actually being consumed (smell exhaust for fuel after cranking for a while).
Cheers,
Robin
Anyway, the crank position sensor needs to present exactly the correct pattern before the ECU thinks about believing it. There are 36 teeth on the flywheel, except there are some that are missing - the CPS produces a morse-code like pattern of 30-odd short pulses and a couple of longer pulses; these all the ECU to work out where TDC is ... in my experience the CPS is either OK or it isn't; intermittent function rapidly becomes no function and the ECU wouldn't spark the engine if it thought it wasn't seeing TDC properly.
My money is still on fuelling. I think it would be worth seeing whether any fuel is actually being consumed (smell exhaust for fuel after cranking for a while).
Cheers,
Robin
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offshorematt
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:25 am
- Location: Aberdeen
No outcome yet 
The timing belt wasn't loose as far as I could see. I've changed the plugs, leads, dizzy and rotor arm and as expected nothing has improved - it's actually getting stranger... spent some time concentrating on the fuelling today. There appears to be trace fuel at the spark plugs after cranking but not as much as I would expect considering nothing is burning off. I drained some fuel from the tank and check it for combustion which was fine but I added 5l more of S U/L just in case. The fuel pump primes okay and if I break the fuel line before the fuel rail it pumps (with good pressure) as long as the engine is cranked, exactly as it should do. Where it starts getting strange, is that when the fuel line is disconnected, the engine starts first time and will run smoothly. Initially I thought that it was drawing fuel up the return line but after trying it for longer and longer (10secondsish) it dies - I'm now certain that it is simply the remainder of the fuel in the rail, gravity feeding into the injectors. Therefore although the fuel is pumping through the rail, the injectors are only feeding the chamber when the pressure is removed. My current theory is that the Pressure Regulator is opening at too low a pressure and all the fuel is returning to the tank - if the flowrate was too high, a venturi effect will be achieved across the injector spurs and fuel won't flow into the cylinder regardless of the injectors being open. This obviously won't occur when the fuel rail is at atmospheric pressure. The other option is that the pressure regulator is not opening at all and the volume of fuel being injected under the overly high pressure is too large for combustion. However I would expect the plugs to be wringing and the exhaust to stink of petrol in that case...
Referring to the Lotus Service Notes, I can't see that any of the sensors failing could cause this...
I thought that a set of partly tightened mole grips on my fuel return line would allow suficient back pressure in the system to check out the theory but this didn't work (pitch darkness didn't help). So really, short of driving 100 yards at a time, the way ahead would appear to be hooking up a gauge to the fuel line upstream of the fuel rail and seeing if the system is at the 2-3bar that it should be. Anyone got such a gauge lying around that they would lend out? I did consider just plugging the return line up to see what would hapen but I don't know what the fuel pump is rated to pressure-wise and the last thing I want to do is over-pressure the system and split all the lines
Or has anyone got any alternative ideas to explain this (especially Richard Humble who I notice suggested this about two weeks ago
)? Must admit I don't want to change out a fuel rail on my own possibly faulty logic...
The timing belt wasn't loose as far as I could see. I've changed the plugs, leads, dizzy and rotor arm and as expected nothing has improved - it's actually getting stranger... spent some time concentrating on the fuelling today. There appears to be trace fuel at the spark plugs after cranking but not as much as I would expect considering nothing is burning off. I drained some fuel from the tank and check it for combustion which was fine but I added 5l more of S U/L just in case. The fuel pump primes okay and if I break the fuel line before the fuel rail it pumps (with good pressure) as long as the engine is cranked, exactly as it should do. Where it starts getting strange, is that when the fuel line is disconnected, the engine starts first time and will run smoothly. Initially I thought that it was drawing fuel up the return line but after trying it for longer and longer (10secondsish) it dies - I'm now certain that it is simply the remainder of the fuel in the rail, gravity feeding into the injectors. Therefore although the fuel is pumping through the rail, the injectors are only feeding the chamber when the pressure is removed. My current theory is that the Pressure Regulator is opening at too low a pressure and all the fuel is returning to the tank - if the flowrate was too high, a venturi effect will be achieved across the injector spurs and fuel won't flow into the cylinder regardless of the injectors being open. This obviously won't occur when the fuel rail is at atmospheric pressure. The other option is that the pressure regulator is not opening at all and the volume of fuel being injected under the overly high pressure is too large for combustion. However I would expect the plugs to be wringing and the exhaust to stink of petrol in that case...
Referring to the Lotus Service Notes, I can't see that any of the sensors failing could cause this...
I thought that a set of partly tightened mole grips on my fuel return line would allow suficient back pressure in the system to check out the theory but this didn't work (pitch darkness didn't help). So really, short of driving 100 yards at a time, the way ahead would appear to be hooking up a gauge to the fuel line upstream of the fuel rail and seeing if the system is at the 2-3bar that it should be. Anyone got such a gauge lying around that they would lend out? I did consider just plugging the return line up to see what would hapen but I don't know what the fuel pump is rated to pressure-wise and the last thing I want to do is over-pressure the system and split all the lines
Or has anyone got any alternative ideas to explain this (especially Richard Humble who I notice suggested this about two weeks ago
)? Must admit I don't want to change out a fuel rail on my own possibly faulty logic...
Lucky guess
Give Shug a bell see if he can find the fuel rail, might be a winner. Bit of a pig to get at and change mind you. but you could start with the FPR. Got to be worth a try.
Good luck!
Give Shug a bell see if he can find the fuel rail, might be a winner. Bit of a pig to get at and change mind you. but you could start with the FPR. Got to be worth a try.
Good luck!
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
2004 Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
2004 Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers
There is a vacuum hose from the FPR to the intake manifold - is this fitted? It's purpose is to balance the fuel pressure to the manifold pressure (strictly speaking, it tries to maintain a constant pressure across the fuel injector so that the flow is proportional to opening time and not manifold pressure). Frankly I doubt it will make much difference, but worth checking.
I have a complete spare fuel rail here including FPR, so you could just change it and see (and Tut probably has one too ...).
I think that you are right - if the FPR were running unregulated then you would indeed get no flow into the injectors- there is no incentive for the fuel to force itself through the eye of a needle rather than just slop back into the tank.
When the fuel pump is off (or disconnected) then the fuel just sits in the rail and the vacuum in the intake manifold will be enough to suck some fuel through and you need piss all to make it idle so it'll just about work.
I suspect if you open the throttle it will stall pretty quickly.
Change the FPR and see what happens ...
Cheers,
Robin
I have a complete spare fuel rail here including FPR, so you could just change it and see (and Tut probably has one too ...).
I think that you are right - if the FPR were running unregulated then you would indeed get no flow into the injectors- there is no incentive for the fuel to force itself through the eye of a needle rather than just slop back into the tank.
When the fuel pump is off (or disconnected) then the fuel just sits in the rail and the vacuum in the intake manifold will be enough to suck some fuel through and you need piss all to make it idle so it'll just about work.
I suspect if you open the throttle it will stall pretty quickly.
Change the FPR and see what happens ...
Cheers,
Robin
Ah! Yes, you can fit the honda one inline in the return assuming you can make the pipes fit - you really don't want fuel spraying about the engine bay if you can avoid it!
Matt, if you need an FPR or a whole fuel rail, drop me a line and an address and I'll get it posted up to you.
TBH it doesn't sound like swapping the fuel rail makes much sense - more likely just the FPR.
Cheers,
Robin
P.S. - the honda one will be OK to idle and part throttle running but if it is 3.5 bar it will overfuel the engine - the standard rover part is 3.0 bar I think - so don't leave it that way.
Matt, if you need an FPR or a whole fuel rail, drop me a line and an address and I'll get it posted up to you.
TBH it doesn't sound like swapping the fuel rail makes much sense - more likely just the FPR.
Cheers,
Robin
P.S. - the honda one will be OK to idle and part throttle running but if it is 3.5 bar it will overfuel the engine - the standard rover part is 3.0 bar I think - so don't leave it that way.