What I like about Honda k20's

The place to "speak geek"
KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by KingK_series » Tue May 29, 2012 7:52 pm

tut wrote:No, N3 is S/C, N1 was N/A but was written off last year.

Must have missed something along the way as regards Stu's car. is this Stu Pollack that is fitting one of your engines?

tut

- i did hear that and am sorry, but glad your son was ok

yep the Stu you know

looking forward to getting his 160 engine breathed on to show NA hondas the way, on an OEM Rover plenum.

User avatar
Sanjøy
Posts: 8831
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Edinburgh Hamptons

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by Sanjøy » Tue May 29, 2012 10:40 pm

Av 27mpg in the 340 over the last 5k which included a frolic. Last full was 19mpg.

S
W213 All Terrain

User avatar
tut
Barefoot Ninja
Posts: 22975
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Tut End, Glen of Newmill

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by tut » Tue May 29, 2012 10:54 pm

Stu is a good driver, and it will be interesting to see what you are going to do to his engine.

Twill have to be comfortably above 200hp with equal drivers to be in contention, but we love a challenge and something different.

tut

KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by KingK_series » Wed May 30, 2012 8:50 am

tut wrote:Stu is a good driver, and it will be interesting to see what you are going to do to his engine.

Twill have to be comfortably above 200hp with equal drivers to be in contention, but we love a challenge and something different.

tut

Well it will not be a "KingK' engine, the only definitive parts it will use [ie my design] will be the oil pump, and a modified OEM water pump [with my design of impeller and pulley], it will otherwise be off the shelf parts [ie REC valves] and stock Lotus 160 cams [just 10.something lift] but blueprinted, with all the work I do to one of my engines etc etc to see what we can get out of a 'built' Lotus 160 Sport engine. Am really not interested in building engines like this anymore but Stu is a friend who has helped out a lot over the years and it may be an 'original' engine that can swap into his scandal 160 sometime, and then be replaced by a big engine in his new car - we'll see..

however am gonna give it some to try and get better than 200lbft and 150lbft on the Rover plenum and TB. Remember it will have an advantage out of every corner over a honda because the crankset will weigh just 18.5kg as opposed to 31.5kg for a Honda K20A2, and that's a couple of meters if I can get it anywhere near 200bhp, and with 50kg less in the car than a Honda it shouldn't be too hard to nail a conversion.... we will see

User avatar
hiscot
Posts: 757
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 8:56 am
Location: North Scotland

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by hiscot » Wed May 30, 2012 9:09 am

however am gonna give it some to try and get better than 200lbft and 150lbft on the Rover plenum and TB. Remember it will have an advantage out of every corner over a honda because the crankset will weigh just 18.5kg as opposed to 31.5kg for a Honda K20A2, and that's a couple of meters if I can get it anywhere near 200bhp, and with 50kg less in the car than a Honda it shouldn't be too hard to nail a conversion.... we will see
KingK_series

Simon imo the honda being a 2.0 with a well matched gearbox will have the advantage
I expect it will take a lot more than 200 /150lbt even with 50kg less
bob

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak

KingK_series
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by KingK_series » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:35 pm

hiscot wrote:however am gonna give it some to try and get better than 200lbft and 150lbft on the Rover plenum and TB. Remember it will have an advantage out of every corner over a honda because the crankset will weigh just 18.5kg as opposed to 31.5kg for a Honda K20A2, and that's a couple of meters if I can get it anywhere near 200bhp, and with 50kg less in the car than a Honda it shouldn't be too hard to nail a conversion.... we will see
KingK_series

Simon imo the honda being a 2.0 with a well matched gearbox will have the advantage
I expect it will take a lot more than 200 /150lbt even with 50kg less

Well first off it's not an engine specifically designed to beat the honda on BHP -it's built with Lotus sport 160 cams and an OEM plenum, - we will see where it comes out, but it'll be interesting to try and get it close to a na honda WITH those limitations.

If I chose not to use those parts, the Honda would be toast, easy!

however the interesting point is your gearing comments...

Image

here are the K20A2 ratios, - and I cannot for one see how you cn call those ratios well matched, 1st is way too low, doesn't manage 38mph at the redline - the gearing IS matched for a one and a half ton Honda Civic not a Lotus be it a 765kg honda monster or a lighter K engined car.

Holmz
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by Holmz » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:36 am

KingK_series wrote: ...
Yes they run at 85% duty but not much above idle they are sized to fire before the inlet opens - which is bad for emissions and torque because the fuel falls out of suspension in static air
...
I am not sure this is 100% accurate.

You do not want to squirt before the intake valve opens if you have a lot of overlap, as you then have a lot of fuel going straight out the exhaust.
So it accurate that it is bad for emissions, but mostly at low RPM.
If you do not have a lot of overlap then it does not matter, and I suspect the VTEC solves some of those overlap issues.

At RPMs past where significant intake get drawn into the exhaust, then it debatable as to how good or bad it is. But with a poorly atomising injector the statement may be accurate. And one does not ant sheets of fuel raining off the intake walls, so it also matters as to how hot or cold the intake tracks are.

Another school of thought is that you want to squirt the fuel onto a closed intake valve to both cool the valve as well as more of the atomised fuel can be converted to be vaporised the fuel from picking up the heat of the valve.

And yet another school of thought is that injecting higher up in the intake provides more time for vaporisation as that also cools the intake charge which makes it denser, hence more power. But that also results in wetted out runners, which are not easy to dry out for emissions without moving some air through them.


Scuffers wrote: ...
To spec injectors that are big enough to achieve max required flow without going over ~35% duration would be catastrophically stupid for several reasons, in no particular order:

1) emissions
2) fuel pulp/reg sizing (and increased cost)
3) idle/low load performance
[/quote]

I am not sure that this is 100% accurate either.

I believe that the ideal is to have the injectors sized for duty cycle (in phase or degrees) at something around the intake timing duration in degrees. Then the fuel gets delivered when the air is flowing.
But this means very small injectors for partial throttle, leading all the way to massively sized injectors for WOT - where at high RPM the cycles is "short in time".

There is only two solutions
1) Run the car at either high RPM high-load with big injectors
2) Optimise it for cruise., and do not allow it to get to high RPM high load.
3) Size the injectors at the 85% DC as a compromise.

4) Or the more elegant solution of Dual injectors. But neither the K-series nor K-20 have that as OEM option, whereas some of the toyotas have the 5th injector which does take that approach.

Maybe this is headed into why people like Toyotas :cheers
Last edited by Holmz on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dominic
Posts: 14458
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:14 am
Location: Milton Of Campsie
Contact:

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by Dominic » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:05 am

Welcome to SE!

Now, please don't bring Toyota engines into this debate, I'm not sure our wee forum could handle that discussion right now! :lol:
http://www.dsaccountancy.com

1999 Lotus Elise Sport 135'99

User avatar
dirkpitt
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:50 am
Location: Frome, somerset

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by dirkpitt » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:33 am

Dominic wrote:Welcome to SE!

Now, please don't bring Toyota engines into this debate, I'm not sure our wee forum could handle that discussion right now! :lol:
:lol: ...yeah toyota 2zz-ge engines ..rock!!! :mrgreen:
captian james t kirk-i am sorry i cant hear you, over the sound of how awesome i am-

1998 Audi Elige s1-1.8t 20v

05 Exige S2 - stage 2- Piperx VIS induction

User avatar
j2 lot
Posts: 7660
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: Strathaven / Glasgow

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by j2 lot » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:19 pm

Haloo anyone there? I've got a Vauxhall Z2oler engine (or is it Z2olet, can never remember) - are they any good :? :mrgreen:
2015 Lotus Evora
2022 Polestar 2 LRSM Plus
2023 Skoda Kodiaq Sportline

User avatar
Dominic
Posts: 14458
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:14 am
Location: Milton Of Campsie
Contact:

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by Dominic » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:23 pm

This could get messy.............. :popcorn
http://www.dsaccountancy.com

1999 Lotus Elise Sport 135'99

User avatar
Sanjøy
Posts: 8831
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Edinburgh Hamptons

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by Sanjøy » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:13 pm

Was up at KH today as met Janie who is racing in the Time Attack series on his S1 exige Scuffers mentioned. Had a wee poke about his car, lovely Honda SC install and sequential box. I think was said it was 390+ at the wheels.
sh*t night to be sleepIng up at KH. There were both extremes up there. £100k motor home and some lad with his tent pitched on his BJ trailer :)

Quite tempted to head up tomorrow to see how he fairs.

S
W213 All Terrain

User avatar
c murray
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:34 pm
Location: Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by c murray » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:20 pm

well i love my k20 it gets me from a to b fast
lost lost lost we gav

User avatar
scottishselise
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:34 am

Re: What I like about Honda k20's

Post by scottishselise » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:21 pm

Also v.tempted to make the journey down from the deen to see this. I believe it is running in conjunction with drifting championship which looks a right laugh!

Post Reply