Who has had a bad experience with a tuned K?

[KingK_series]

First off, whe you tune ANY engine, na you go further up the rev range, K is no diffeent from any engine ever designed in that regard

Obviously, but we are talking about the K series not any engine.

second, the K does NOT have a inbuilt "bad reaction" to the 8000ishrpm rev range, - IT DOES HAVE a really bad resonant frequancy at 6900-7100rpm which causes wobbling of the rear of the crank which if held long enough at that point can break the crank. The PTP flywheel is too heavy at 4.2kg with a standard [heavy] pressed steel type clutch to significantly affect this - in fact VHPD engines break notoriously, not because they have 170 or 190bhp, but because they tend to get revved to that frequency. The solution is a much lighter flywheel and clutch to move the resonant frequancy entirely above the rev range, or more simply go through it more quickly, ie an engine with a 9000rpm limit revved to that is much safer than a 7500 or 8000rpm engine that gets short shifted. All engines and all cranks have resonant frequancies, that includes the honda K20 too -

Sorry for not being technically correct in my wording, but resonant frequency is felt as vibration and I should have said "my K" had a bad reaction to 8k.

if you avoid aftermarket flywheels and cranks [obviously this is not great on track] do not linger at 7000rpm, fit forged pistons, - that will work just as well in a 160bhp engine as 250bhp, [aside from water pump issues etc etc].

So, you recon that you should use a stock flywheel even if you build a 200+ bhp engine that revs to 9000rpm. What about countering the extra weight of the forged pistons which are heavier than standard pistons by IIRC 60g each.[/quote



you will not 'feel' the resonant frequancy unless you rev to 7000rpm and stay there.... in otherwords if you rev through 7000rpm the moment is so brief neither you or the engine will be aware of it

almost undoubtedly your bad feeling was because the aftermarket flywheel was badly out of balance - which would feel worse as the revs rise.

one of the bits of work that I did for the KingK article was that most balancing shops do a really bad job, even big name engine builders get it very badly wrong, one one company in my experiance can be trusted outside the F1 teams and OEMs.

Omega pistons weigh 300gmm, OEs 296gmms - diddlesquat

and all I4 cranks just about are very undercounterweighted anyway.

[pete]

No it has nothing to do with mid engined install - KingK needs to be rewritten, I have got so much further than that now

The PRT helps - a lot, but it is no cure, the biggest single step is a proper water pump, but as I have said I have designed one for my engines but there is no commercially available pump.

Oh I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this.

So there is no commercially available water pump, however you say with certainty that your homebrew pump is "the biggest single improvement" that can be made.
Look I'm not having a pop - but how do you know? How many engines have used your solution? I read KingK too and you spoke with the same certainty then too but seemingly with a different solution.

Campbell, sorry mate but of course people can name names, it's not libel if it's true. (qv Tripadvisor).

[roadboy]

Pete, I really wouldn't bother. There is absolutely no point in trying to have a reasoned discussion with Simon Erland.

Just years of the same old blinkered beliefs and waiting for the book and mystical engines that are never actually seen.

I'm having a good chuckle reading through all this crap though.

Dan

[Mikie711]

[campbell]

Campbell, sorry mate but of course people can name names, it's not libel if it's true. (qv Tripadvisor).

Sorry mate but not here. How are we to know it's true? (!)

[pete]

Campbell, sorry mate but of course people can name names, it's not libel if it's true. (qv Tripadvisor).

Sorry mate but not here. How are we to know it's true? (!)

<Thread drift>

Trip advisor don't check that their reviewers reviews are true. You (as a mod) are not a publisher and as such aren't liable for libel. If you start moderating remarks over whether they are true (rather than just whether they contain bad language or are offensive) then do you not become[ liable as you are then setting yourself up as a de facto editor.

I mean it's not going to come to that, it's so unlikely that anyone would sue SE as to be laughable. People on receiving bad service are reluctant to post their experiences here as it leaves a bad taste.

So do you censor us if we criticise businesses?

Campbell, I'm shocked! What about freedom of speech?

[robin]

There's a couple of issues here.

Pete, I'm sorry to report that we (SE) have been threatened with legal action on several occasions. You are right that we are happy to have people post experiences, whether good or bad, and to name names, provided you stick to the facts.

Simon E., you ought not to solicit negative comments, as you well know.

So Campbell is correct in the context of this thread. Simon E. as somebody who is involved in the tuning business (even if it is not in a fully commercial way) is allowed to contribute opinions to the technical content of the forum but is not allowed to solicit business, nor is he allowed to slate the services of others in the business, whether directly, or, as in this case, by proxy.

On the other hand if a member decides they want to post up about something that happened to them that they did or didn't like, they can start a thread and do it. Others might then post their experiences on the same thread. I encourage members to do this as it is in part the purpose of the forum _but_ stick to the facts.

Thirdly, it's not about actual legal actions, it's about whose time and money gets wasted resolving them. It's one thing to be brave and say "we're not liable" when it's not you receiving the letters, but put yourself in the shoes of those receiving communications from the lawyers ...

Cheers,
Robin

[pete]

There's a couple of issues here.

Pete, I'm sorry to report that we (SE) have been threatened with legal action on several occasions. You are right that we are happy to have people post experiences, whether good or bad, and to name names, provided you stick to the facts.

Simon E., you ought not to solicit negative comments, as you well know.

So Campbell is correct in the context of this thread. Simon E. as somebody who is involved in the tuning business (even if it is not in a fully commercial way) is allowed to contribute opinions to the technical content of the forum but is not allowed to solicit business, nor is he allowed to slate the services of others in the business, whether directly, or, as in this case, by proxy.

On the other hand if a member decides they want to post up about something that happened to them that they did or didn't like, they can start a thread and do it. Others might then post their experiences on the same thread. I encourage members to do this as it is in part the purpose of the forum _but_ stick to the facts.

Yep, and that's me put in my place.

Keep up the good work chaps (mods).

Thirdly, it's not about actual legal actions, it's about whose time and money gets wasted resolving them. It's one thing to be brave and say "we're not liable" when it's not you receiving the letters, but put yourself in the shoes of those receiving communications from the lawyers ...

Cheers,
Robin

But that phrase wasn't meant like that, I wasn't accusing the mods of a lack of bravery - merely concerned that Campbell seemed to be instructing us not to name names. I see now that I didn't have the full picture.

Pete

[KingK_series]

No it has nothing to do with mid engined install - KingK needs to be rewritten, I have got so much further than that now

The PRT helps - a lot, but it is no cure, the biggest single step is a proper water pump, but as I have said I have designed one for my engines but there is no commercially available pump.

Oh I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this.

So there is no commercially available water pump, however you say with certainty that your homebrew pump is "the biggest single improvement" that can be made.
Look I'm not having a pop - but how do you know? How many engines have used your solution? I read KingK too and you spoke with the same certainty then too but seemingly with a different solution.

Campbell, sorry mate but of course people can name names, it's not libel if it's true. (qv Tripadvisor).

The "homebrew" pump I have designed is based on a current F1 design, it is similar to pumps designed for and fitted to Vauxhall and Honda k20 engines built by AAA and Neil Brown for BTCC - for years. How do I know mine work, well the first was retrofitted to my BTCC engine in 2007 and I have a number of them running around on engines built since including the Adrian Newey turbo engine that I was involved in helping Lanzanti's build. I think the total with such pumps is currently 17 running since 2007,

In addition I had a good relationship with the Rover design engineers at Longbridge and saw what they wee doing by way of a comprehensive redesign of the engine for Euro4, one of the measures was a new pump not dissimilar to mine, currently fitted to the chinese built N series in the MG6.

[KingK_series]

Pete, I really wouldn't bother. There is absolutely no point in trying to have a reasoned discussion with Simon Erland.

Just years of the same old blinkered beliefs and waiting for the book and mystical engines that are never actually seen.

I'm having a good chuckle reading through all this crap though.

Dan

You have seen pics of not so mythical engines..... including the now 6 year old BTCC engine

perhaps you would like to tell me who else in the lotus community, converting to hondas, audis or tuning Ks has built a engine to such a high spec for a professional race team?


can't see any hondas except in little clubman series......

do tell if you know different? or perhaps you have built something for a pro team and driver?

[KingK_series]

As a matter of information on the subject of "aftermarket" flywheel manufacturer.


said musn't be named manufacturer clearly had a problem because all the VHPD engines they supplied flywheels for, in both Caterham and lotus installs were badly out of balance

There came a point when they approached me about this and I met with two of their engineers back in 2005 to discuss the issue, they were deeply skeptical but asked me to take 2 of their especially well balanced flywheels to the one place I had faith in to assess and rebalance if necessary. The results were as before 380+gmm out, hopelessly outside OEM tolerence at 100gmm max. Iwas then asked by the head of Caterham to do same test for them, same result. All test data was carefully written up and presented, said companies paid balancing concern directly. - Apparently the flywheels were built into engines and those engines ran very much better, impressing all who drove them..... so did they then modify their builds to include proper balancing..... no why...... one word cost. money...... who suffers..... you the consumers....and the K series engine which is tuned with parts that would not pass test on the OEM production line on a shopping trolly engine.


Another example of how bad this got...... MGRover contracted a major engine builder to build 1.6L engines for a WRC rally MG race programme, they were incredibly expensive, but suffered terrible vibration, so bad that bits were breaking off....

I met with said builders by chance and offered the opinion that the engine might be badly balanced. Oh no they said we have a beautiful steel crank which we carefully balance to well within OEM tolerence. I doubted it, the problems continued.......... Eventually I commented on this to my friend Bob Alebon who designed the K series cranks and was responsible for their development. He was able to use the Longbridge management to demand said engine builder to knock down one of their engines and bring the crank to Eastworks Longbridge where it was tested on the stock production balancing machine - the crank was hideously out..... so much for their careful balancing to inside OEM tolerences! Subsequently all their cranks went to the independent balancing company that I had first recommended, were all found to be massively out, and so were rebalanced. This was 2004.

[Ferg]

If you were able to get this pump design into a short run production you would surely have a winner on your hands if it makes such a difference and is the single biggest improvement possible. K series owners would be lining up to buy one to fit at the next belt change. Just look at the plastic pump fiasco on the VW 20v engines, anyone with any sense fits the metal impeller by default at the belt change. If you could offer such a critical upgrade, even at a small premium, I don't think you'd be able to make them fast enough.

By reading your tales of previous work, this shouldn't be outwith the realms of your capability.

[hiscot]

In addition I had a good relationship with the Rover design engineers at Longbridge and saw what they wee doing by way of a comprehensive redesign of the engine for Euro4, one of the measures was a new pump not dissimilar to mine, currently fitted to the chinese built N series in the MG6.
KingK_series


Simon I understand the mg6 uses a TCI-tech engine a fully reworked k series where as the N series fitted to the new mgtf was a euro 4 stop gap
but I expect the N series pump may retro fit the k series ? maybe its worth trying to source one for what it would cost

[KingK_series]

In addition I had a good relationship with the Rover design engineers at Longbridge and saw what they wee doing by way of a comprehensive redesign of the engine for Euro4, one of the measures was a new pump not dissimilar to mine, currently fitted to the chinese built N series in the MG6.
KingK_series


Simon I understand the mg6 uses a TCI-tech engine a fully reworked k series where as the N series fitted to the new mgtf was a euro 4 stop gap
but I expect the N series pump may retro fit the k series ? maybe its worth trying to source one for what it would cost

I have seen MG6s with N series engines

sadly the new pump will not fit to K, The N has a completely new [but similar looking] block, and a bigger housing for the pump.

[KingK_series]

If you were able to get this pump design into a short run production you would surely have a winner on your hands if it makes such a difference and is the single biggest improvement possible. K series owners would be lining up to buy one to fit at the next belt change. Just look at the plastic pump fiasco on the VW 20v engines, anyone with any sense fits the metal impeller by default at the belt change. If you could offer such a critical upgrade, even at a small premium, I don't think you'd be able to make them fast enough.

By reading your tales of previous work, this shouldn't be outwith the realms of your capability.

Well it's not so simple, firstly it costs a lot of money, the KingK pump that goes onto an engine with KingK on the tin has a larger bearing to take 12,000rpm without overheating [that's the engine speed of my hillclimb engine], a very expensive water seal, but the biggest problem as I discovered with my earliest engines is trusting other people to use engines and by implication parts properly, it was a bitter lesson in the early days that it didn't matter how carefully an engine was built, it could all be thrown away in the install. That in truth is something the turnkey honda boys have got right, and maybe a pump should be easier, but it is just amazing what people do.... and then you get into insurance and before you know it you are in it for real... not easy and not what I intended.... but then what do I do with all this work after the book is out... dunno..


anyway a pic of 2 non OEM k series pumps, an OEM [top right] and my pump below, I am afraid I am not going to show the crucial bit on the other side, because the "pros" will be along to claim credit for my work again, but it works so well it needs to be underdriven and no OE Lotus plastic end cap rad will stand the pressure for a minute...blows right past the caps, even too much for a VVC plenum type inlet manifold gasket, so I have to machine the manifolds for a viton O-ring seal.