TFALC Ignition system wiring - Porky EFI

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robin
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Post by robin » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:40 am

The ECU normally floats the coil drive circuit. The other side of the coil is connected to +12v. When the ECU wants to create a spark it must first pull the coil drive circuit low, thus causing current to flow through the coil. Then it quickly releases the circuit, which causes the collapse of the magnetic field inside the coil, which leads to the spark.

So if you were to look at the coil drive wire with an oscilloscope you would see +12v up until the ECU wants to create a spark, then 0v while the ECU is charging up the magnetic field in the coil, then a rapidly rising voltage up to say 400v followed by a return to +12v. The spark accompanies the rapid rise up to 400v (which would be <10 microseconds in width).

With my system attached, the pattern on the scope would look the same, but the pulse would be extended. I see the ECU start the cycle. If I want to retard this particular spark, I turn my FET on (so both ECU and my box are allowing current to flow through the coil to 0v). At some point, the ECU will release it's drive, thinking that it will create a spark. Because my FET is still turned on, it won't - instead current keeps flowing through my FET until we reach the mapped spark time, then I release my FET and we see the rapid voltage rise and a spark.

So you can see that the time for which the current flows through the coil is extended by this scheme (which might also make for bigger sparks, but wil certainly make for more heat in the coil windings).

This wouldn't work for cars with the coil drive FET built into the plug-top coil pack as these are self timing I think (the 5v pulse from the ECU says "spark now" and it doesn't matter how long the pulse lasts for).

For such cars you would need to cut the original wire, feed the ecu pulses into the box and have the box drive out new pulses to the coil drivers.

A power commander would indeed work, but will cost a lot more than it will cost me to build the above, and where's the fun in buying something when you can build it instead :-)

Cheers,
Robin
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mac
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Post by mac » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:46 am

Robin,

would this system work on Mandy's car with the big head re-attached or is it really only suitable for race cars?


Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

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Post by 2F45T4U » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:01 pm

robin wrote:This wouldn't work for cars with the coil drive FET built into the plug-top coil pack as these are self timing I think (the 5v pulse from the ECU says "spark now" and it doesn't matter how long the pulse lasts for).
Robin
ah ok now i understand. i didnt realise the coil driver/ignitor was integral to the ECU ;)

your idea is right enough then.

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robin
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Post by robin » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:23 pm

Mac,

It would allow you to retard the ignition, but why do you want to do that?

Cheers,
Robin
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mac
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Post by mac » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:50 pm

I thought it was a way to run the S2 on the stock ECU.

Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

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robin
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Post by robin » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:29 pm

It's a way to make some very small changes to the behaviour of the ECU so as to retard ignition timing; this makes the engine generate less power. It won't really help map fuelling, etc., if that's required. You'll need to wait for the V2 ...


Cheers,
Robin
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mac
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Post by mac » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:07 pm

Have you been able to start a modded head on the standard ECU? I tried with the PTP one and it wouldn't fire - scan tool suggested that the cam position sensor was failing.

Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

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robin
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Post by robin » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:18 pm

You can use the PTP head on otherwise completely standard car; whether or not it will run very well is another matter. The cams have the cam position sensor lobe on them, and provided you actually fit and connect the CPS then it will work.

I have run my big valve head on 285's and throttle bodies on the standard S2 ECU. It worked, but not very well - wouldn't like to actually rev it up or anything!

What's the problem with the PTP supplied ECU?

Cheers,
Robin
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mac
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Post by mac » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:29 pm

It's just too lumpy at part throttle for Mandy to use daily through the town.


Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:38 pm

Can I get away with any coil pack, or will I have to use a ford one? Its because the ford one uses stupid ford plug lead ends....
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Post by 2F45T4U » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:30 pm

robin wrote:
I have run my big valve head on 285's and throttle bodies on the standard S2 ECU. It worked, but not very well - wouldn't like to actually rev it up or anything!
Robin, how does the S2 load sense? is it MAP or TPS? as running Throttle bodies by load sensing with MAP will result is horrible running due to the pressure pulses in the manifold. the fact that you had 285deg cams and big valves....you sound lucky to get it to run at all :lol:
i bet it would be a pretty wild engine when tuned up sweet though!! :twisted:


As for the coil packs, i dont know how the trigger and ignitor circuit works for the Fordy stuff. Hopefully someone here will be able to tell you though.

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Rich H
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Post by Rich H » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:59 pm

They are neg trigger coils, constant 12V feed. The control unit is seperate, will the characteristics of the packs make much differnece?
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress
1980 Porsche 924 Turbo - Funky Interior Spec
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robin
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Post by robin » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:44 am

Rich, you could measure the resistance of the ford coil and whatever you propose to switch it with. Although it's not a 100% foolproof method if they are similar you'll be OK.

A lower impedance coil might overload the coil drive circuits; also a coil that has a lot more inductance than the Ford coil might create a bigger peak voltage on spark which might blow the coil driver circuits. In modern systems I would expect a ignition specific transistor to be used - these are built to withstand ~400V and then they will dump any excess energy without damage (within reason - don't go attaching your favourite tesla coil to it).


Fraser,

The K series uses a MAP built into either ECU (EU2 K16 engines/S1 elise) or the plenum (VVC S1/S2 and EU3 engines/S2 elise) for primary load indicator. Throttle angle is used to adjust fuel for throttle transients and to control whether or not the ECU is running closed circuit.

In my case I had the MAP sensor connected via some vacuum tubing, so not ideal - was really just to check out the mechanics before I went the whole hog and plumbed in the ECU. In the end I took the cams and DTH TB back off (DTH TBs didn't quite fit in the engine bay ;-)) and ran the same head with standard cams on the standard ECU - makes 160 BHP :-)

Cheers,
Robin
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robin
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Post by robin » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:48 am

Mac,

A reasonable compromise would be to refit the standard cams and perhaps the standard inlet plenum; that would make a nice 145-ish and be really driveable on the standard ECU.

Did you already get the verniers? DVA recommends changing to verniers (and perhaps some other cams actually).

Cheers,
Robin
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mac
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Post by mac » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:12 am

Yup got the verniers - that's the reason for the head being off - I managed to bend a valve on my first unsupervised attempt at timing them.

Fortunatly they are now properly timed to DVA's setting as Lawrence came over in the summer.


Mac
S2 Elise (cobalt blue with stripes) - toy spec
Caterham 7 - hillclimb spec
Yamaha Thundercat - 2 wheeled toy spec

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