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The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:37 am
by rawsco
Simply because I want to see what happens when we get Mike started on it!
Ceramic or Iron? Unfortunately not a problem most lotus owners have although unless aftermarket. I suspect the newer models on the way might go the way of Ceramic due to the unsprung mass reduction benefits but track durability is not reputedly great for carbon ceramic and replacement costs eye watering with no clear indicator of when they are done save taking them off and weighing.
I’m quite interested in the engineering aspects of it. Which I suppose is the reason for the debate, each has its own applications.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:42 am
by Stephen
You missed MMC as fitted to the original (and best) S1.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:15 am
by graeme
Drums all round.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:11 am
by Ferg
There was a relatively cheap one off batch of S1 Carbon Ceramic disks available last year maybe? So there will be people out there with experience of using them.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:46 am
by Sanjøy
Stephen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:42 am
You missed MMC as fitted to the original (and best) S1.
+1 You do not believe the weight of them until you lift them.
Elise derivatives are too light for ceramics are they not?
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:49 pm
by rawsco
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:30 pm
by neil
For performance, ceramics. If you're paying, iron.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:15 pm
by Mikie711
The carbon ceramics on the R8 were initially spectacular if a little grabby when cold. Nearly put myself through the windscreen when I picked up the car. On the road the problem was that if you had to brake hard for whatever reason you had to watch your rear view mirror as they could haul the car up in an incredibly short distance. A few times in rush hour it would catch someone out if the line slowed suddenly.
On a run they were great same on track as they were fade free and allowed you to brake much later than steels. I held the honour of having the only V10 plus that Aberdeen Audi had to change the pads on which revealed a second issue with CC brakes, at least Audi ones. The second set of pads were nowhere as good as the first. They just didn't stop the car as quickly and had a little less feel to them than the original set. I don't know if this was because in the interim they changed the compound or because it takes an absolute age to bed them in. Under normal conditions the pads and discs are meant to last the life of the car apparently.
When I was at Silverstone and spoke with the guys that run the Audi experience they told me that other than tyres pads was the only thing they changed regularly on the experience cars and their brakes again didn't feel or perform as well as the originals.
Cost wise there isn't much in it for pads, they are a bit dearer but not eye watering, couple of hundred on a full pad change between normal and carbon ceramic on the R8. The big difference is the discs which are £2500 a corner and allegedly they are quite easy to chip. I never had any issue with the discs but when it went for it's 3 years service it did need new front callipers. Due to the heat cycles being very high compared to steels the bleed nipples were welded in and Audi won't let the garage heat the calliper to get them out. Once they were changed I got the used callipers back from Audi and I couldn't get them out either even with heat. Sold them on Ebay as used and have no idea if the guy that bought them had better luck.
All in all I would have them on a car I was using on track but not on a car that spends the majority of its time on the road. They did look impressive behind the wheel though.
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:32 pm
by Sanjøy
Mikie711 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:15 pm
The carbon ceramics on the R8 were initially spectacular if a little grabby when cold. Nearly put myself through the windscreen when I picked up the car. On the road the problem was that if you had to brake hard for whatever reason you had to watch your rear view mirror as they could haul the car up in an incredibly short distance. A few times in rush hour it would catch someone out if the line slowed suddenly.
On a run they were great same on track as they were fade free and allowed you to brake much later than steels. I held the honour of having the only V10 plus that Aberdeen Audi had to change the pads on which revealed a second issue with CC brakes, at least Audi ones. The second set of pads were nowhere as good as the first. They just didn't stop the car as quickly and had a little less feel to them than the original set. I don't know if this was because in the interim they changed the compound or because it takes an absolute age to bed them in. Under normal conditions the pads and discs are meant to last the life of the car apparently.
When I was at Silverstone and spoke with the guys that run the Audi experience they told me that other than tyres pads was the only thing they changed regularly on the experience cars and their brakes again didn't feel or perform as well as the originals.
Cost wise there isn't much in it for pads, they are a bit dearer but not eye watering, couple of hundred on a full pad change between normal and carbon ceramic on the R8. The big difference is the discs which are £2500 a corner and allegedly they are quite easy to chip. I never had any issue with the discs but when it went for it's 3 years service it did need new front callipers. Due to the heat cycles being very high compared to steels the bleed nipples were welded in and Audi won't let the garage heat the calliper to get them out. Once they were changed I got the used callipers back from Audi and I couldn't get them out either even with heat. Sold them on Ebay as used and have no idea if the guy that bought them had better luck.
All in all I would have them on a car I was using on track but not on a car that spends the majority of its time on the road. They did look impressive behind the wheel though.
More importantly did you make them glow?
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:28 pm
by Mikie711
Sanjøy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:32 pm
More importantly did you make them glow?
Yes
The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:41 pm
by campbell
Pagid RS42.
Now what was the question
Joking apart, I've no experience of ceramics and that's unlikely to change really...
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:38 pm
by rossybee
campbell wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:41 pm
Joking apart, I've no experience of ceramics and that's unlikely to change really...
Neither do I, not do I particularly want it to. Too much potential cost which then in turn spoils the whole ownership experience....
Re: The great brake debate ....
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:56 pm
by Jam_s160
Ferg wrote:There was a relatively cheap one off batch of S1 Carbon Ceramic disks available last year maybe? So there will be people out there with experience of using them.
I was part of that group and ordered a full set for my S3 Cup with spare pads (circa £3200 worth paid up front). After 6mths of waiting I cancelled the ordered as they never turned up. Wasn’t the simplest process to get my money back either, but I did in the end. I’ve not heard any reports from others on how they got on with theirs?
I was super excited about trying them out, but now have Pagid RTS3 with Ali belled items instead.
Man maths said economics over 5yrs meant it was much of a muchiness on Ali belled items not being cheaper due to replacement cycles based on certain mileage / track use.
Weight saving per corner would have been epic too...
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