The Referendum

[tut]

Read part of the 500 page white paper today, and I have already decided to say fcuk the rest of you, I am voting for what is going to be the best for my family, and do you know what? I think that I have the right.

One thing that has really pissed me off is that from next year new OAP's will go onto £145/week, whereas existing ones will be on £110. WTF is that about? Alex says that he is going to raise that to £150, but again only applicable to new pensioners.

I realise that none of you are close to having to consider that for many years, but it does for the two of us.

tut

[Dominic]

It will be great, until the money runs out.

[j2 lot]

, I am voting for what is going to be the best for my family, and do you know what? I think that I have the right

I think you are right to do so Tut. I read bits of the white paper and to me it still reads like a wish list. Where is the substance and the nuts and bolts. A lot of assumptions being made and I would worry that they wouldn't be supported where it is dependant on the UK/EU doing what Eck want / needs. Also some massive omissions IMHO - where do we get our base energy - can't rely on wind power for it all and as soon as you have to buy elsewhere you loose the control you need.

[Titanium S1 111S (gla)]

Have had a very brief look at it and it seems to me that it gives rise to more questions than it answers.

I can’t take their word for it that it will be “all right on the night” especially as it is forever.

No thanks Eck!

[David]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas

Strictly my personal opinion . . .


Having just studied the the SNP white paper, I really do think they are out of touch with the facts.

The SNP are suggesting that the SBC (Scottish Broadcast Corporation ?) will have 200 million budget - 24 million more than the BBC Scotland would get in 2017 (176 million regional budget). Well that's just the regional broadcasting budget. BBC Scotland currently shares 8% of network programs budget - 8% of 5 billion (BBC income) is 400 million plus the regional budget, so that's nearly 600 million spent in Scotland. Three times the proposed budget - so why are they saying we would be better off?

The idea that BBC would continue to share 8% of its budget with another broadcaster, in another country, (without getting the licence fee income) is fantasy. In fact SBC, with two thirds of their income lost, would need to shrink rapidly too, and would not be able to service the BBC anyway.
.

[robin]

I think you are right to do so Tut. I read bits of the white paper and to me it still reads like a wish list. Where is the substance and the nuts and bolts. A lot of assumptions being made and I would worry that they wouldn't be supported where it is dependant on the UK/EU doing what Eck want / needs.

Just putting the other side of the argument - I am in the no camp myself :-

Scotland is already dependent on UK/EU doing what we need - if the UK government has the wrong monetary policy, we're stuffed either way, aren't we; ditto for EU?

The existing arrangement is full of (wrong) assumptions about growth, debt, etc. So far the government has barely managed to slow down the haemorrhage - there's a long way to go to get to break even and thus the beginning of paying back the debt. A strategy of gambling (yes, it's always a gamble) on splurging cash to boost growth is equally as valid as austerity, especially if all your neighbours are adopting the austerity approach; if that gamble is taken and pays off then Scotland could be in a better economic position (perhaps at the expense of the rest of the UK, but that's competition for you).

Also some massive omissions IMHO - where do we get our base energy - can't rely on wind power for it all and as soon as you have to buy elsewhere you loose the control you need.

[/quote]

Why assume that anything changes - right now we buy our energy from the free market, and energy conversion is also on the free market. The national grid provides the framework to shift power from generators to consumers. Generating companies and raw energy suppliers are global companies that operate across many countries in the world, including the UK. The government's contributions to this market are taxation (positive, as in VAT and negative, as in subsidising green/nuclear) and regulation. A Scottish government would be able to alter the taxation to suit (probably ditching nuclear - very short sighted - I would welcome nuclear power stations in Scotland). It's unlikely that the regulatory framework would have to change.

I think there are some significant challenges in going independent, but energy policy is unlikely to be one of them.

Cheers,
Robin

[Chucks]

Read part of the 500 page white paper today, and I have already decided to say fcuk the rest of you, I am voting for what is going to be the best for my family, and do you know what? I think that I have the right.

One thing that has really pissed me off is that from next year new OAP's will go onto £145/week, whereas existing ones will be on £110. WTF is that about? Alex says that he is going to raise that to £150, but again only applicable to new pensioners.

I realise that none of you are close to having to consider that for many years, but it does for the two of us.

tut

Why should anyone do anything other than what's best for their own family Tut?

Typical politics, there's more future pensioners than current pensioners in the undecided camp hence it makes more sense to try to buy their votes. Of course there won't actually be any need to deliver on any promises as once the deed is done there's no going back. Should they win there will just be another two years of bickering over the divide & no doubt accusations that Westminster won't allow a "fair" sharing of national resources / debt.

[j2 lot]

Why assume that anything changes - right now we buy our energy from the free market, and energy conversion is also on the free market. The national grid provides the framework to shift power from generators to consumers. Generating companies and raw energy suppliers are global companies that operate across many countries in the world, including the UK. The government's contributions to this market are taxation (positive, as in VAT and negative, as in subsidising green/nuclear) and regulation. A Scottish government would be able to alter the taxation to suit (probably ditching nuclear - very short sighted - I would welcome nuclear power stations in Scotland). It's unlikely that the regulatory framework would have to change

The white paper ( don't have it here to quote) but from memory references using our own resources and a move away from nuclear

[robin]

Sure, but that's just the taxation/regulation element.

Neither the UK government nor any future Scottish government is likely to take energy generation or "mining" back into public ownership. So whilst we might splurge a load of tax money on encouraging somebody to build renewable generation plants, the commercial boys will be burning dinosaurs and feeding the grid somewhere (here or in England/Wales). I doubt they will cut the grid at the border, any more than they will dig up the roads or close the railways. We may end up paying more (the new UK government might attempt to put some sort of levy on "exported" electricity crossing the border, but that wouldn't last long as it would simply encourage production to shift out of the UK).

One issue might be that when they finally realize they will need nuclear to make ends meet they may not have the financial resources to persuade anyone to come and build the plant, but the UK is in that position already - I think we simply promised that the new nuclear plants got to sell their output at market + X.

I think what they are trying to portray with this shift to renewable generation ("own resources") is that somehow Scotland might get its energy for free (wind/wave doesn't cost anything) and thus be better off and less exposed to the volatility of dinosaur energy pricing. Of course that's bollocks - whilst taxes might encourage the building of the plant, it will be operated commercially and thus output will be sold onto the grid for the same as dinosaur electricity (or more given that the bribes have to come from somewhere). At least until such time as there is so much "free" energy that the prices have to fall.

The reality is likely to more pragmatic - there will be some more renewable generation and most of our gas/electricity will continue to come from where it currently comes from at pretty much the same price as we would have paid inside the UK.

And that's really the answer to all of the issues - if faced with having an independent Scotland most things will be resolved pragmatically - there will be a few Gibraltar style spats to make a point (mostly for the benefit of the Daily Mail) but on the whole businesses will want to keep operating both sides of the border and will find ways to make that work.

I still think it's a waste of time and money, but I don't agree with the scaremongers that Scotland will be broke/freezing/starving in 10 years, any more than England will be. Same sh*t, different politicians


Cheers,
Robin

[robin]

Why should anyone do anything other than what's best for their own family Tut?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Or to put it less flippantly, provided what your family has is good enough, maybe it's OK that some money goes somewhere else to help people who are more needy.

I am not saying that's the exact case here, just pointing out that there are good reasons to look at the big picture as well as your own family situation and strike a balance.

Cheers,
Robin

[campbell]

when they finally realize

realise

[campbell]

Shall we run our own SE referendum right now, for fun?!

[robin]

when they finally realize

realise

<regexp>
reali[sz]e
</regexp>

[tut]

We can always sell them water.
Nuclear is out.
This is a blow.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ne-project

tut

[Rosssco]

Shall we run our own SE referendum right now, for fun?!

It would be interesting, but at the same time, I think the demographics of this forum would ultimately produce a relatively decisive 'no' vote..

Briely on the white paper. Had a flick through, but no where (as a sceptic) did I read anything that made me question any of the views I already had on SNP policies. And that's what this document really needed to do.. The document really means nothing to the diehards on either side. The "vision" is there (definatly a more socialist vision, whether that appeals to you or not), but again it is light on substance past arguments like "its the sensible or logicial approach" or "it would be in the UK's best interest".. None of this provides anything to

Listened to John Swinney on the radio this AM, and nothing but repeated answer dodging on what was not a difficult (you'd think) question on where the money is comming from - apparently getting rid of "WMD's" from the Clyde shall provide a major windfall for all Scotland..