Any planning experts? Specifically outbuildings.

[Stevoraith]

Just after a bit of advice from anyone who may know a bit about when planning permission is required for an outbuilding.

My neighbour has recently errected a 'games room' in his back garden. The building is about 3m x 5m, and is about 2m from his house.

He reckons he doesn't need planning permission as it is under 25m2 floor area.
It's really difficult to find any sort of guidelines on the net but I did find something which stated that anything over 10m3 (yes, cubic m) within 5m of the house would be treated as an extension and therefor require planning permission.

To be honest though, the actual structure isn't a problem. I'ts the fact that he is planning to put decking ontop of it, creating a raised platform which would badly overlook our garden, and more importantly, the back of our house.

Here are a couple of pics which might help explain;

from our upstairs window- his new structure in the top left obviously


From our patio door- you can just see the top of the structure, but this shows the elevations a bit more and this is the part of the house that they would be able to see into.


A bit of further explanation- both gardens are on a slope down from the back door. He has excavated part of the garden so he could sink this building into it and he now wants decking coming straight out from his patio doors and over the top of the roof of this building.

I have sopken to him about it and his attitude is "it's happening". I've previously had a good relationship with him so am a bit disappointed about this. The compromise I suggested is that he stops the decking about 2m back from the edge of the building (i.e closer to his house) and this would stop them being able to se back into the house.
He wasn't having any of it.
His solution was to take down the fence between the houses and put up a higher one, or plant conifers.
I wouldn't be happy with either of those as we get little enough sun as it is.

I don't want to do an anonymous planning tip-off as I'd rather be open and up-front about everything, but I would like to know if he needs planning permission either for the building, or for an area of decking which would be high above all the surrounding gardens.

Any help would be appreciated.

[woody]

Phone planning and ask their guidelines. Worked for me in the past when I wanted to check what I could do with my own property.

[Stevoraith]

That was my first thougth Woody, but Fife councils website says

Please note that no informal advice on whether a proposal requires planning permission will be given either by telephone or email.

It all seems very secrative- surely more people would be encouraged to seek the appropriate permissions if there were clear and straightforward guidelines

[renmure]

No real help but when I did my games room / decking project a couple of years ago the architect involved said that the regulations relating to decking could be fairly tortuous in relation to height and privacy (think I remember 1m being a significant measurement)

[campbell]

That was my first thougth Woody, but Fife councils website says

Please note that no informal advice on whether a proposal requires planning permission will be given either by telephone or email.

It all seems very secrative- surely more people would be encouraged to seek the appropriate permissions if there were clear and straightforward guidelines

That disclaimer could be oriented towards the person undertaking works, however, so you already stand a greater chance of getting some guidance in my view. At the very least, the council planning dept will be obliged to point you to the formal regulations (these are public domain and probably available via googling, TBH) in order for you to ascertain if it's worth lodging an objection.

Even if there is no planning application underway (this is the whole point, isn't it!), a written enquiry about a project you've become aware of cannot be ignored by the council, and will immediately start a paper trail which can be used later if it all starts to get messy. Email should do.

You've done the right thing by approaching the neighbour directly. Sadly, the least he could have done is approach YOU beforehand...but perhaps he knew you'd object (informally, even if not "legally").

Always a shame when neighbourly stuff goes this way. Good luck.

Campbell

[Dark]

Contact the planning enforcement officer at the local council and tell them that you believe non-permitted development is occurring.

Send him copies of the photos and a brief description. He will usually visit site and make a judgement if it is permitted development (this usually includes small structures such as a porch, shed, garage, etc). I would not expect a separate building of that size & material and in that proximity to the main residence to be permitted development.

I believe the rules regarding decking are even stricter; anything higher than 1 foot from the ground or anything that would impact the amenity or privacy of another property must have planning permission.

While you're at it I'd also report him to the building regulations officer at the council to make sure the structure meets guidelines for safety, etc.

Finally don't worry about dropping your neighbour in it; it's much more common than you'd think!

Cheers, Mark

[max1966]

As commented above, report this as a suspected non-permitted development.

As it appears to be over 2m high (even though under the permitted area) it would require PP and needs a warrant due to its size, this will also turn up a few issues which will screw him over I'd suspect. Looking at it he has also raised the level of the back garden to allow for disposal of the excavated soil, you shouldn't really do that either.

And as for the decking, not a chance in hell, definitely would require PP. The councils are particularly hot on this due to overlooking, whether it's relevant or not, but in your case no chance. We have had exceptions to this in the past but would dissuade clients from attempting this kind of thing as the chance of success is less than nil.

Note of caution though, even though he will have brought it upon himself, this could be messy. From experience neighbourly disputes can be nasty and even the friendliest of neighbours can turn

Dob him in though he fully deserves it.

[Stevoraith]

Some very helpful comments there gents.

Homing in on the 'permitted development' language led me to the 'permitted development guidlines' on the scotland.gov site.

It appears were were both correct- anything over 4m2 and within 5m2 of the current house is classed as an extension to the house. However, if it is under 24m2 (which this is) or less than 20% of existing floorplan (which again, I'm sure it is) it is classed as a 'permitted development' and may be errected without permission.

So I think he can get away with it. Max, I'm not sure if it is over 2m high- his garden is higher than mine which makes it look worse but I'm not sure how high it is from the ground on his side. Also, it's dug into the slope on his side, does that make a difference? I'll try and get a pic over the fence to show you.
As for raising the level ofhis garden, yes he also did that but not by as much as it appears as his garden was always a good foot or so higher than mine.

It's proving much more tricky to find legislation on decking though.....

Mark, when you say "higher than one foot from the ground" does that mean the ground which it is installed on, or any ground surrounding it.
What I'm getting at is that it would be flush on top of his roof (so less than a foot above that) but obvioulsy more than a foot of the ground around it.

[campbell]

So my guess is that him decking its roof might be the main area you can contest - from what Mark (Dark) says above.

In the end, a light garden sprinkler system which has an unfortunate overspray in the direction of his new erection might help get the point across. But that is of course very petulant and merely lowering yourself to his level.

My biggest concern here would be value or marketability of my own home with a high-level overlooking construction like this next door, in which case the situation is actually pretty serious and could easily escalate. You'll need to watch that.

[Stevoraith]

Dark, Max, are you architects?

Comments about neighbourly disputes are noted though. That is why 'dobbing him in' will be a last resort and will certainly not be done before I know all my facts.

Campbell, he did tell me his plans before he started work and I said I didn't think it would be a problem. At that stage I had no idea how far out from the house the building would come though. If it was a couple of meters closer to the house I still woudn't have a problem with it, but now that I see how badly overlooked we would be......

And as you say, marketability of the house when it has a badly overlooked garden is my main concern.

[max1966]

Yes, I am an architect.

From the photos there appears to be a lintol, one assumes a door or window, I'm also guessing that as it is to be used as a room it will have a ceiling height, below the roof structure of min 2m. Sinking it into the ground i'd suspect would make no difference, certainly not just by a little bit (not to mention very expensive if done right). As to whether this determines whether PP is req, perhaps not, but the structure is then getting more and more substantial.

Although the guidelines are on the .gov website the councils have there own view on these matters. Really without consulting it is difficult to be absolute but I'm sure the decking alone requires PP. As it's supported on something which certainly in my view would require permission my advice to him would have been to seek clarification, if no planning permission had been required then he should be able to evidence this, if for nothing else when he comes to sell it.

The CEC Guidelines are here and although typically vague through experience you get a feel for what is permissible.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/f ... lterations

I'd worry less about the 'facts' than the impact this will have on your property and, although he won't thank you, letting him crack on and then getting the council involved will result in even more wasted money. I'm confident you are in the right. I note that Fife Council look to raise a fee for clarification, I'd go down the route of contacting the Councils Enforcement team. And he still requires a warrant..................does he have one?

[Dark]

No, I'm not an architect!

But I have extensive experience of the planning system after we bought a piece of field and attempted (successfully!) to turn it into domestic garden despite the best efforts of our spiteful neighbour! Not that I'm bitter because we won and our neighbour spent hundreds of pounds getting her solicitor to write nasty letters! It was hard work though and wouldn't have been possible without help & advice from friends & friends of friends!

From what I've seen any decking more than 1 foot above ground level needs planning permission. Here's one reference I found although as said above each council has their own specific rules.

http://www.tda.org.uk/NetBuildPro/proce ... tions.html

I would contact the enforcement officer as soon as possible. He'll either class the structure as permitted development or issue an enforcement notice and ask the neighbour to stop building and submit a planning application. As well as rules around the size and position of the structure there are also rules about how much garden you're allowed to take away as part of permitted development. Given that the structure is relatively large compared to the garden this might also be grounds for it to be classed as non-permitted development and require planning permission.

When you talk to the planning officer try and remain calm & unbiased. You don't need to object at this stage, explain you just want to understand if it's permitted. Then when the facts are clear you can start drawing up a list of material objections (search the internet for examples).

Hope this helps, Mark

[campbell]

I began to panic when reading all this, and thinking of our (extensive) deck at the back of our place. Then remembered...it was on the plans, and our completion certificate is the bag...phew

Although ours is quite a different proposition to the one in question...we are barely 15 inches up, it doesn't alter any "overlooks", it simply "joins up" all the door thresholds around the back of the house and covers the area of the old patio. Indeed its foundations are on the actual slabs!

Fingers crossed for you Steve. The approaches outlined are very sensible and non-confrontational...so far

[kenny]

Would this bit cover it?



PART 2
SUNDRY MINOR OPERATIONS
Class 7.—
(1) The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence,
wall or other means of enclosure.
(2) Development is not permitted by this class if—
(a) the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure to be erected or
constructed within 20 metres of a road would, after the carrying out of the development,
exceed one metre above ground level;
(b) the height of any other gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure to be erected or
constructed would exceed two metres above ground level;
(c)

[max1966]

Aye Kenny that would about do it, as I said it's a gut feeling but yes there is clearly legislation to cover it, game, set and match.