Winter tyres. Discuss.

[campbell]

I contacted a pal in Switzerland for his experiences. Here's the response, to start the debate...

You are right that winter tyres are compulsory here in Switzerland but I think this is driven by the insurance companies rather than the state. If you have an accident in the snow then without winter tyres no payment. Therefore here it is just seen as a standard thing that everyone does.

On to the subject of whether they are any good that is open to debate as it depends on a number of factors, the type of tyre, the type of conditions, the car being driven and the most important the driver.

I have winter tyres on at the moment and have been slipping and sliding around (although think they are getting towards the end of their life). On the flip side when Maggie and I worked a winter season in Flaine I had a little mini metro turbo 1.3 (wow I hear you gasp) with summer tyres on for the whole season and never had a problem.

Also bear in mind that they only help in snow, when it gets icy there is no advantage.

If it were me I would not bother. Also they increase your fuel consumption quite a lot due to the tread being thicker.

Here are my thoughts.

Immediate analysis of the above says "pff, why should we bother here, then?". However, the alpine infrastructure is better tooled up because of the regularity of wintry weather, whereas in the last 20 years UK winters have become much more irregular in terms of snowfall. And/or the amount of car use/ownership is much higher so it is perceived to matter more that we should be able to cope, when in fact a generation ago we very much did cope...by walking!!!

Driver education (once again) seems to be at the top of the list of priorities.

Avoiding bald winter tyres runs a close 2nd

Avoiding a journey altogether when it's gone Armageddon is probably 3rd.

And having a light, simple, FWD car seems a close 4th

Maybe winter tyres themselves come in around 5th !

So all in all, I'd say:

- we can't expect to mandate winter tyres for the mass driving population in the way that alpine areas do

- however we should actively promote them in the same way as other basic seasonal safety precautions (like having plenty tread on your tyres, servicing your car regularly etc).

- And every time we dig out some other hapless motorist, let's try to explain to them the techniques they should be using - that's education, that is!

[Scotty C]

sorry just off topic

2009 Skoda Octavia vRS oil burner estate - if Carlsberg made estate cars...

it would be an RS6? 4 wheel drive

[Mikie711]

I guess it depends what car your putting them on. I have a set that I used on my boxster and 911, the difference was astonishing. The other factor is that summer tyres are not designed to work below 7 degC. Something about the rubber compound means they aren't as effective in cold temperatures. That's not to say the don't work, obviously they do but winter tyres are designed with low temps in mind and are supposed to work better. Will let you know if they make any difference on the RRS if I ever get a set .

Not sure an RS6 would be any use. My 911 was 4 wheel drive and I couldn't even get it out the drive if it had snowed. Without a doubt a little car with skinny wheels is the way ahead. Big wide tyres is the last thing you would want.

[roadboy]

Not all of the above is true Campbell. Winter guts work far better in icy conditions than summer tyres. They are specifically formulated to work in a lower temperature window.

There's also a big difference between slipping and sliding and getting stuck.

Winter tyres should be changed when they reach 4mm tread depth.

Not convinced on the fuel economy either. I ran winter tyres on the Jag for 5 months last winter and saw no difference in fuel economy at all. Including a trip to France in dry weather.

I do agree however that driver education is the most important thing as 90% of people seem to have no idea how to drive in wintery conditions.

Dan

[ryallm]

When I have been sliding around in my Beemer on the way to work the last couple of days it did occur to me that winter tyres would be a good idea, but actually the problem recently has been ice everywhere rather than snow so I am not sure how they much they would help . Sod's law dictates that if you lash out for a set of winter wheels and tyres, the next few winters will return to the overall trend of the last 15 years, which is for milder and wetter weather.

If I bin the car on the way home tonight I may well change my mind

Agree that driver education and personal responsibility are the answer rather than compulsion.

Mark

[campbell]

sorry just off topic

2009 Skoda Octavia vRS oil burner estate - if Carlsberg made estate cars...

it would be an RS6? 4 wheel drive

Staying briefly off topic...no it wouldn't, far too thirsty for your man in the street like me...however on reflection the vRS would be provided with the Audi 4x4 gubbins I wonder why they don't do that already...

[Modena Scotland]

I've read on the net some British insurance companies do NOT pay out if you have an accident with winter tyres......... which could be BS, but worth checking the policy before changing the tyres.

[Scotty C]

sorry just off topic

2009 Skoda Octavia vRS oil burner estate - if Carlsberg made estate cars...

it would be an RS6? 4 wheel drive

Staying briefly off topic...no it wouldn't, far too thirsty for your man in the street like me...however on reflection the vRS would be provided with the Audi 4x4 gubbins I wonder why they don't do that already...

yes but your taking Carlsberg - they really dont have a budget? thats the whole point is it not?

[campbell]

I'll do some accurate economics when I can get sensible prices for winter tyres, but here's the basic logic.

You are going to use up tyres one way or another.

If you fit a different set (winter or otherwise) and don't throw away your part-worns, and put them back on when conditions dictate, then you are not buying "an extra set", your are just interleaving the usage of 2 sets. Subject to the time-based lifespan of the rubber, I accept (anyone got expertise on this?).

The only additional costs are the tyre swappage and balancing. Or the set of 2nd hand or steel rims you put the winters on.

Swappage and balancing is £13 per corner where I go, so that's £52 twice a year.

If a set of 2nd hand or steel rims costs £250 (this is about the lowest I could find on eBay in a hurry, am sure this could be beaten with some effort), then it needs just 3 winter seasons' usage of alternative rims to outweigh the cost of twice-yearly swappage of tyres - assuming you change over the wheelsets yourself, of course. And assuming you have a place to store them.

So for a relatively modest outlay - and remembering that you would be forking out every year or two for tyre fitting and balancing even if you never used winters - it seems a tiny price to pay for a much greater level of confidence and reliability, especially for those who must make "essential" journeys more than most.

If it avoided just one bump which cost you a few hundred £££ in bodywork excess, why would you not do it?

I know insurers are currently trying to claim that winters are a modification, that's just greed and I don't think will be allowed to stand since people are genuinely trying to improve safety and reduce accidents through this, but we shall see. Some lobbying required there perhaps.

My Elise trackday rims are now on a very shaky peg

[campbell]

yes but your taking Carlsberg - they really dont have a budget? thats the whole point is it not?

Ah. See what you mean. D'you think I should change my sig then? "If Carlsberg made sensible estate cars..."

[Dominic]

There is a difference between snow tyres and winter tyres. Snow tyres tend to be knobbly; winter tyres will have all the small zigzag cuts on the tread blocks;- that is what grips more on the ice. One of my pals runs knobbly mud and snow tyres (for doing official stuff on rally stages), and he finds them poor on ice. So you need the right tyres for the conditions. Slush / softer snow is different to ice to drive on, so a good winter tyre has to deal with both.

A few months ago I was giving serious thought to getting winter tyres. I used my astra throughout last winter and did not get stuck once, so decided that until I started to struggle, I could not justify needing them. Interestingly, the tyres I had on it last winter were some cheap random brand (that were on the car when I bought it). This winter, I am on Toyo Proxes, which don't seem to offer quite so much grip (although I am yet to get stuck (prob because I have been using a landrover quite a bit)).

In the past few weeks I have also been using a landrover on winter tyres quite a lot. I have taken it places that a car would never get which has proven quite useful. I have been considering changing my car for a few months. High on the list is a 330 BMW tourer, however, I have had a few folk saying "bet you are glad you did not get that now"! Well, yes and no. I do however find myself now erring towards an audi, quattro of some description.

The biggest problem of having a 4wd / snow tyres is that all it takes is for one or two folk to be on rubbish tyres / not know how to drive in the conditions, and you have a traffic jam. Even the best 4x4 can't do anything about the traffic! (unless you are in bigfoot).

So I guess, IMHO snow tyres / 4x4 will be useful for part of the time during the bad weather, which is only really a small part of the year... worth the investment; I'm not entirely convinved yet.

[Mike Scib]

Next time it snows pop over to mine and we will see who can make it up my street on standard tyres and who can make it up on winter tyres

Out of the people have have bought and used them have any of you been disappointed? I know i was very impressed and would never be with out them now.

[MacK]

I have winter tyres on both my Impreza and my Merc van.

I got the Impreza towards the end of the bad snow last year, and whilst it was capable on the 'summer' tyres, it wasn't brilliant and you knew the 4 wheel drive system was working to find the traction.
Now with winter tyres it is virtually unstopable in lying snow, slush or ice, going up steep hills and icy roads as if there is nothing there. The only problem come when the snow starts getting too deep and I'm worrying about snow getting too far into the engine area and/or blocking the rad etc.

The RWD Merc van I have only had for a few weeks and decided to put winter tyres on it rather than the mix of Ying Yong and NangKang tyres that were on it. I noticed a change first drive after changing tyres, the traction control stopped kicking in when pulling quickly away at junctions etc. And in the snow and ice I have had no problems, I'm not saying I've not had to get a spade out, but that was mainly due to the hard compacted snow/ice/slush mixture a couple of weeks ago and carrying out tight turning manouvres, rather than loosing traction going up hill or similar.

I got the tyres for the Impreza back in September from MyTyres and paid £320 for 4 delivered (Nokian WRG2's) and had previouslly bought a set of second hand alloys for £40 for them to go on. I got the Merc tyres from TyreMen in November and they were £290 for 4 delivered (Hankook RW06) and just changed them for the existing tyres (£13.50 per corner) I've yet to decide whether to get a spare set of rims and put the old tyres on them for the 'summer' or just keep the winters on all year.


This is the first time I have ever used winter tyres, but I am certain that the Impreza wouldn't have got to many of the places it has in the past few weeks so easily if it was on normal tyres.

[campbell]

Dom, my Dad...also an accountant (!) made a similar observation to yours re: getting stuck amongst others not on snow tyres.

Very fair point. With some qualifications...

I think I'd rather take the chance TBH. Our journey back from Arrochar last week went OK but as Scotty put it elsewhere "might have been one jack-knifed lorry away from a 9-hr trip"...now, the winters wouldn't help me if I'm on the m-way behind a jack-knife, but I wasn't...I was on A-roads with options on the direction(s) to take, and those options would have opened out considerably further with winter tyres on.

My ability to get out of our estate would also have been considerably improved

Our lifestyle is such that a tiny proportion of our driving is now commuting. A small proportion is urban m-way. A larger proportion is "inter stellar m-way" to Cumbria. And the biggest proportion is probably hacking around the countryside and Highlands/Borders doing outdoors-y things with the kids.

Based on personal lifestyle and priorities, therefore, the winters keep jumping back up as "a good idea" to me.

PS - for avoidance of doubt I am talking about Winter tyres, not Snow tyres or Mud & Snow tyres.

[douglasgdmw]

Another factor is that even a 4x4 will not get you anywhere if you do not have the correct tyres on.

A neighbour of mine had a Ford Explorer pickup truck which had 4x4 (with big rims and road tyres) and he was slipping around on the snow a couple of weeks back - so much so that we spent 1.5 hours trying to get his into his driveway. Must admit that it was the worst 4 wheel drive system I have seen.

Unfortunately I sold the Evo last year but based upon my neighbours truck the Evo would have been miles better in the snow - the complicated system that Mitsu have developed to transfer tractions around all the wheels would have meant that my car would have run rings around him.

On the driver education front, some 4x4 drivers think that just because they have traction coming away for junctions/lights they have got it for stopping. Its a completely different principle when it comes to putting the anchors on.

Cheers
George