Scottish Income tax

[pete]

Not hearing whingeing at all.

I come back to my earlier point. I want to see my tax take SPENT more WISELY.

I am weary of hearing politicians bang on about "we poured millions into X" or "we have allocate gazillions to fund Y". Where's the efficiency? Where's the governance? Where's the accountability? Where's the business case?

THESE are the disciplines we are voting for. Not tax rates, not ideologies, not personalities. Common bloody sense.

I have yet to see anyone delivering these disciplines.

Got any suitable candidates?

I hate the "we spent billions on x" too - as a percentage of what? How much were you spending before?

[pete]

I just wanted to better understand your "work hard" point.

Now to taxation again. So you favour a progressive tax system, then?

this is the problem with workign shifts, everyone else has gone to bed and I'm arguing with myself!

There is an earlier post which suggests that only the rich work hard and in doing so pay for the beer of the poor. I thought that was what Nizzy meant by "the poor might work hard too" (and it was fairly insulting to suggest otherwise). Coudl be wrong thoguh, but it's what I took from it.

[campbell]

I'm still up!

So are we arguing? Or agreeing? Just askin'

[neil]

What I'd like to know is what's the cutoff between rich and poor? IE which category do I fit into

[campbell]

Well that depends.

[pete]

I'm still up!

So are we arguing? Or agreeing? Just askin'

Jeez my typing is awful sometimes...

Errm I think we're arguing. I'm always arguing.

[campbell]

Lol. Well in that case I'm off to bed, you are too clever for me!

My shift starts at 8am and involves young children. Although sometimes they are easier to work with than some "grown ups" I have encountered.

Ski lessons for 5 days. Them not me. I'm taking ear defenders. For the cafe. For me not them. Night!!

[pete]

Alternatively we could go full crowdsourcing and just pay what you feel like.

I suppose that is the anarchy model though, isn't it?

We kind of do decide, we oscillate about a bit but there's little difference really. This is, after all, about a few people getting upset about +5% on everything over "loads" and behaving as if it would be a cause for revolution.

It used to be 95%...

[pete]

My shift starts at 8am and involves young children. Although sometimes they are easier to work with than some "grown ups" I have encountered.

Oh bollocks it's 0030!

I'm off to bed too.

[PhilA]

Working hard (or hardly working).
All though education, it was taught that if you study hard and get results, then u get a better paid job - mainly because you prove you are doing something others cant and so get paid more for it.
Effort at the workplace is a smaller effect on your wage, when you are employed, from my experience.

Having ur own business, you work harder because you have more impact on your take home - better performing company = better reward for company owners.

TAX - its spending someone elses money, when you are in power.
I like the Green idea of funding everyone for a certain level of income, whether working or not.
Why do I see this benefit? Because ive been there where illness means you cant work, and Ive seen how unfair it is to go from middle to zero income when its outwith your control.
But, that would need more TAXes - so everyone gives more in TAX, but also everyone gets a certain level of income.

What I would like, in a TAX system, is a breakdown of what you are paying - e.g.
50% tax level:
20% for general income.
10% health.
5% such and such.
3% something else.
2% other.

Probably would need bands for higher earners, but lower earners also paid significant tax as they have the guaranteed income.

I think that level of support and transparency of tax and where its spent would be accepted - so if an extra 1% was needed for special cancer treatment for all, and you knew u were also going to benefit from it, as were your kids etc, then you would be happy.

Does mean a complete mental shift in working - e.g. get a 15k job and you only get 7.5k take home.
but with the state wage, you have well over 20k income.

Maybe it involves council type jobs that everyone has to spend x hours per year doing - from street sweepers, to community care.


There is ZERO chance it will ever come about - and likely majority of "hardly working" people wouldnt care about even trying to work. Meh.

As it stands just now, I see little point in giving more TAX, as its swallowed up in the big Spin machine that is SNP - if they are elected again.
Similarly, Labour's extra penny is virtually zero more income. At least LibDems say where their penny would go.
For me, Green would be good, but noone would vote them in as a majority to do anything.
Tory are a good bet just now - low TAX, same as UK, Unions based approach, may even lower corporation TAX to help folk make more jobs. If only they were interested in renewables - thats not only needed for health of our planet Earth, its also going to be the major boom industry, the next industrial revolution.

Oh, talking of the future - eventually so many jobs will be automated/ too expensive to do in the UK - more and more people will be out of a job. So it will go to the guaranteed income by the backdoor.
How to fund that with less jobs and even older population?!

Bed time!

[BiggestNizzy]

What I'd like to know is what's the cutoff between rich and poor? IE which category do I fit into

That's an easy one have you ever had to choose between feeding your kids and heating them ? If not your doing ok. If you have your poor.

Does mean a complete mental shift in working - e.g. get a 15k job and you only get 7.5k take home.
but with the state wage, you have well over 20k income.

We are back to giving people who don't make a lot of money massive pay cuts so that it's harder for them to feed their children. Or Do you take their kids off them because they can't get a better job? With a standard rate of tax everyone who makes less than £50k will be hit hard, the less you make the harder you get hit. You will end up making working for anything less than £30k+ pointless as you will get more on the dole.

Maybe it involves council type jobs that everyone has to spend x hours per year doing - from street sweepers, to community care.

What about the people who do this job for a living do you make them all unemployed as they have been replaced by people who don't have a job?

There is ZERO chance it will ever come about - and likely majority of "hardly working" people wouldnt care about even trying to work. Meh.

Unemployment benefit is a safety net that I have been lucky never to have used, It doesn't cost that much and overall it's probably a good thing yes there are people who take advantage of the system in the same way as Joey jakebag skams a couple of quid and spends it on fags compared to corporate planning it's a drop in the ocean.

Tory are a good bet just now - low TAX, same as UK, Unions based approach, may even lower corporation TAX to help folk make more jobs. If only they were interested in renewables - thats not only needed for health of our planet Earth, its also going to be the major boom industry, the next industrial revolution.

Or screwing the disabled, Attacking the opposition's finances, selling assets at a loss, increasing the deficit., HS2

[BigD]

Do you know anyone wealthy who doesn't declare their income?

No but I do know many small businesses (usually the trades and taxi drivers) that don't. Cash jobs taken left right and centre. Are these the poor, probably not and may even be the rich if they declared all their cash jobs!!

You cannot blame just the rich for not paying enough tax.

[c8rkh]

I get the feeling that there are some people on here willing to have a sensible debate and put forward reasonable points of view for a sensible challenge, and some people who just want to make a political point and not very well. Guess just like being down the pub with out the advantage of having a beer in my hand

[Rosssco]

Or screwing the disabled, Attacking the opposition's finances, selling assets at a loss, increasing the deficit., HS2

I agree. We should vote for that party with the bottomless pot of money, then none of these things would be an issue..

[PhilA]

What I'd like to know is what's the cutoff between rich and poor? IE which category do I fit into

That's an easy one have you ever had to choose between feeding your kids and heating them ? If not your doing ok. If you have your poor.

Does mean a complete mental shift in working - e.g. get a 15k job and you only get 7.5k take home.
but with the state wage, you have well over 20k income.

We are back to giving people who don't make a lot of money massive pay cuts so that it's harder for them to feed their children. Or Do you take their kids off them because they can't get a better job? With a standard rate of tax everyone who makes less than £50k will be hit hard, the less you make the harder you get hit. You will end up making working for anything less than £30k+ pointless as you will get more on the dole.

Maybe it involves council type jobs that everyone has to spend x hours per year doing - from street sweepers, to community care.

What about the people who do this job for a living do you make them all unemployed as they have been replaced by people who don't have a job?

There is ZERO chance it will ever come about - and likely majority of "hardly working" people wouldnt care about even trying to work. Meh.

Unemployment benefit is a safety net that I have been lucky never to have used, It doesn't cost that much and overall it's probably a good thing yes there are people who take advantage of the system in the same way as Joey jakebag skams a couple of quid and spends it on fags compared to corporate planning it's a drop in the ocean.

Tory are a good bet just now - low TAX, same as UK, Unions based approach, may even lower corporation TAX to help folk make more jobs. If only they were interested in renewables - thats not only needed for health of our planet Earth, its also going to be the major boom industry, the next industrial revolution.

Or screwing the disabled, Attacking the opposition's finances, selling assets at a loss, increasing the deficit., HS2

all my points were in relation to everyone having a basic income no matter their wage so we all can do life things. thats what the greens want.
so no, there wont be the case there of pointless to work - working gives extra, full stop.

other extreme is as now - get benefits, very very basic, and if u have a job you are either taxes more(lab) or taxed less (tory) - but either way, the poor are poorer than under green, and the rich are richer.

no government will ever be able to please everyone. politicing certain cuts as attacks on female/young/disabled etc - in the main its opposition beating the governement in the media.
There will always be people worse off than others in cuts.
In SNPLand, they have been all give, except for collage places, and council jobs, and EU Funding for farmers, and EU funding for school capital projects.
But in terms of TAX, the have got off Scot free

Now they have started to wind up middle earners with not passing on the 40p tax limit rise.
But watch an indy Scotland with SNP in charge - they would never get back in as they would ahve to cut everything significantly.

Tory took on a mucked up economy - a labour welfare system that the economy (us workers) could not support.
Real life bites.
Yes, I agree that the cuts on disabled has gone too far, if it was as protrayed in the media by labour - but up to then they were doing ok.
Everything in moderation - including cutbacks in welfare. I am glad that IDS was the catalyst to modify their policy there.

Elections etc generally keep us in the middle ground - extremes are not well liked.
Green are extreme, but some of their more practical policies are taken up in government over time - the ideas are drawn to the centre ground.

SNP council tax free has gone on too long, people and councils wanted their services and now they have abandoned it - its been moderated.