Independence SE Poll

Anything goes in here.....
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Which way will you vote

Yes
35
22%
No
104
65%
Undecided
21
13%
 
Total votes: 160

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David
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by David » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:25 pm

Mikie711 wrote: Something else for you to get your teeth into wee blue book
I must confess I'm always a dubious about publications like this, so skipped to the bit I do know something about in order to judge its quality, but my fears were confirmed.

Let me explain. (and to be clear this just my own understanding and views)

It says Scotland owns 8% of the BBC - well, for over a decade now, the BBC has leased all of it buildings and equipment with the goal of putting more money towards programme making. Without income from the licence fee, the BBC would be instantly bankrupt - so the 8% claimed to be owned by Scotland, in reality, is the liability for 8% of staff salaries. And I doubt an independent Scotland would be keen to continue to pay those let alone the cost of redundancies a YES vote might cause. I could go on and say the broadcasting rights are owned by the programme makers who are independent production companies these days (most programmes are made with a view to international sales and the BBC only pays for the UK rights and this may not represent the full cost of the production). The sums quoted in the white paper have been plucked from the regional budget (news etc.) and represent the about a third of what is actually spent in Scotland making programmes, so to replicate BBC Scotland and buy in all the programmes (as suggested) would be at least in the order of 3-4 times the sums being suggested. Don't get me wrong, broadcasting would survive in Scotland, and some may take the view that it would be for the better, but it would be very different to what is suggested.

But my point is that is that modus operandi of those putting these publications together needs to be challenged. If we don't, we risk being mislead about the more important issues than broadcasting.
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neil
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by neil » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:01 pm

tut wrote:If he says once more that there are more pandas than Conservative MP's in Scotland, I shall scream.

tut
I think you'll find there are more pregnant pandas that Conservative MP's in Scotland at the moment :mrgreen:
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by tut » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:05 pm

Unfortunately if it is born, he will then be able to brag that there are twice as many.

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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by tut » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:13 pm

Those 100 votes give a 3 to 1 split which is much larger than any of the polls.

Bookies are back to 1/8 from 1/6

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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by Mikie711 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:17 pm

David wrote:
Mikie711 wrote: Something else for you to get your teeth into wee blue book
I must confess I'm always a dubious about publications like this, so skipped to the bit I do know something about in order to judge its quality, but my fears were confirmed.

Let me explain. (and to be clear this just my own understanding and views)

It says Scotland owns 8% of the BBC - well, for over a decade now, the BBC has leased all of it buildings and equipment with the goal of putting more money towards programme making. Without income from the licence fee, the BBC would be instantly bankrupt - so the 8% claimed to be owned by Scotland, in reality, is the liability for 8% of staff salaries. And I doubt an independent Scotland would be keen to continue to pay those let alone the cost of redundancies a YES vote might cause. I could go on and say the broadcasting rights are owned by the programme makers who are independent production companies these days (most programmes are made with a view to international sales and the BBC only pays for the UK rights and this may not represent the full cost of the production). The sums quoted in the white paper have been plucked from the regional budget (news etc.) and represent the about a third of what is actually spent in Scotland making programmes, so to replicate BBC Scotland and buy in all the programmes (as suggested) would be at least in the order of 3-4 times the sums being suggested. Don't get me wrong, broadcasting would survive in Scotland, and some may take the view that it would be for the better, but it would be very different to what is suggested.

But my point is that is that modus operandi of those putting these publications together needs to be challenged. If we don't, we risk being mislead about the more important issues than broadcasting.
But within that spend there are programs made that are sold to a world wide audience. Last year for instance the BBC sold 1,340 (£m) worth of programs and ended the year on 154(£m) profit. Granted much of there operating budget was cover by the License fee, 3/4 infact. On a smaller scale RTE balance sheet stacks up much the same way, reduced amounts granted, and the total cost for making and broadcasting programs was 330 (£m) before applying public funding.
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by David » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:28 pm

With the BBC as a whole having around £4 billion income and Scotland seeing about 25% of that, albeit much of it for network programmes made here. There's also a lot of Scottish production too (Radio Scotland, BBC1 Scotland, BBC2 Scotland, BBC ALBA, CBBC, BBC online, etc. etc.) and it doesn't take much to realise the figures quoted in the white paper don't add up.

Institutions like the BBC are not profit making - but they do require to balance the books and the figures show that. Their purpose is to provide a service - and that costs. It's nonsense to think that with around just 8% of the budget of the BBC as a whole, things won't change on our screens. What's more worrying is that there's an assumption that the public will be happy to pay the same, or more, for a lesser service. If you are telling me RTE is on par with the BBC I rest my case - and I'm sure STV would not be too happy with a state sponsored station absorbing all the advertising revenue either.

Which ever way you look at it an iScotland would have to cut it's cloth accordingly, and it wouldn't be a BBC Scotland. That's all right by me, if that's what people want, but lets be honest with the arguments and not kid ourselves that there'll be no change (as per the wee blue book).
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by Mikie711 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:45 pm

I didn't mean that RTE was anything like the size and diversity of the BBC, it caters to a much smaller audience, as would an SBBC. At the end of the day there wills till be the other 3 (or is that 8 if you count the spin off channels of ITV, CH 4 & 5) but yes the new BBC would be greatly reduced and have to rely on bought in content. What that would cost who knows, and there in lies the problem.
That said if I never see the One Show again I wouldn't be disappointed :wink:

Watched that documentary tut was on about on BBC2. OMG, what was that all about!.
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by David » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:31 am

I didn't mean that RTE was anything like the size and diversity of the BBC, it caters to a much smaller audience, as would an SBBC. At the end of the day there wills till be the other 3 (or is that 8 if you count the spin off channels of ITV, CH 4 & 5) but yes the new BBC would be greatly reduced and have to rely on bought in content. What that would cost who knows, and there in lies the problem.
and from the Wee Blue Book
if an independent Scotland replicated
the entirety of BBC Scotland, and bought in ALL the existing
BBC channels on a commercial basis, it’d still have the best
part of £200m spare every year
So we are agreed that's fiction then?

There's also another assumption you've made
At the end of the day there wills till be the other 3 (or is that 8 if you count the spin off channels of ITV, CH 4 & 5)
Who's going to transmit them? Someone will have to pick up the tab for that. Free-to-air transmission, either terrestrial or Freesat*, that doesn't come cheep. If you are suggesting DSat, then we'll be paying twice (via the service provider and for Scottish Broadcast Company) - that won't go down well.

The whole things has not been thought through.

* Freesat was primarily introduced to overcome terrestrial transmission issues with switch to digital in remote areas. Without an obligation in their licences, the companies may opt out of covering the low population of Scotland with what will become a dislocated advertising market from the rUK - so coverage could change or even disappear altogether.
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by Mikie711 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:36 am

TV will continue, we aren't going to plunged into the dark ages after the vote FFS. In the greater scheme of things TV is not something anyone is worried about, except perhaps you. It has already been stated very clearly that people will still be able to watch Eastenders, how I have no idea and quit frankly don't care.

I guess as a whole it depends how you view Independence. Whether you look at it as an opportunity or a potential disaster. For sure the bugger is in the detail, and so many of them are hidden at worst and muddied at best. One side says this and the other side says that, black is white and white is black. Throughout the whole debate all I see is the No campaigns negativity about anything and everything, apparently there are no positives to this. Yet we already have a partially devolved Gopvernment, all we ask it to take the next step.
The one thing I keep come back to in my mind is if we are such a draw on English resources, cost so much to subsidise, why put up such a fight to maintain the union. I mean 60+ other countries have left the British Empire as late as the 1980's. Granted the circumstances are somewhat different.
For me it's about self determination, do I want the Nation I live in to be run and Governed by itself or by another. The no campaign, and indeed even on here, keeping telling us how bad it will be if we vote yes, but say nothing about what it will be like if we vote no. More devolved powers, some control over the welfare state, what does that tell me.
My mind is set, win or loose I will still be staying in the country I love, won't be spitting the dummy and uprooting to pastures new despite being in a position where that would be extremely easy thing to do. If\when it's a no vote all this will be arbitrary anyway, and we will see what the fall out looks like fairly soon after the vote, which I still believe will be a NO just for the record.
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Jamie Satriani
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by Jamie Satriani » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:27 am

Something I never hear much mention of is what will happen regarding DVLA etc?, would we then have to create a separate Agency?.

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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by j2 lot » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:32 am

... Or buy in the services of the existing organisation at whatever they want to charge :roll:
Last edited by j2 lot on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by neil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:57 am

Mikie711 wrote: For me it's about self determination, do I want the Nation I live in to be run and Governed by itself or by another.
This is the bit I find confusing as the YES campaign are so pro Europe? Surely being governed as part of a population of 60 million in the UK is closer to Independence than being governed by the EU with its population of 740 million?
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by r10crw » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:14 am

Seems a lot of folks scared and extremely pessimistic, more so on here than in my day to day life.

Without being rude, I guess a great deal of the people on here are generally well off (more so than the average) and as such prefer to mitigate any risk, rather than grasp an opportunity.
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by j2 lot » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:17 am

Or you could say they are able to see when a risk is worth talking - and this one isn't as the opportunities aren't there :?:
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Re: Independence SE Poll

Post by BigD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 am

Mikie711 wrote:TV will continue, we aren't going to plunged into the dark ages after the vote FFS.
I've spent a fair amount of time in the Isle of Man, a small independent state/country in the UK with it's own Government etc, it's pretty backward in a lot of ways. Nice to go to on Holiday but I wouldn't want to live there unless I was a tax exile. Most of the kids who want to do something with their life move to England for Uni etc.

Do you remember the STV add for their version of iPlayer obviously they were skint at the time as it was pitiful?

In a broad accent "STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player, STV dot TV slash player,"

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