Scottish Income tax

[BiggestNizzy]

Campbell The market decides wage levels, it's the best way we have so ditch digger will never be paid the same as someone in middle management. What I am saying is just because they are paid less don't assume they don't work hard for it.

Looking at the data The majority of tax comes from the £30-50k a year folk, purely because there are more of them.

Do we go to a flat £25% tax rate?

Nice way to screw over everyone making less than £50k so that those with the greatest amount of disposable income can have even more. Our ditch digger has just had a pay cut of £3,400. All because our guy at the top really needs that extra £250k

Tax planning is a different matter if you are making £2.6m not only can you afford too but you are more likely to be offered the facility is more likely to be offered to reduce your tax liability. This is probably less of an issue with personal tax than it is with corporate tax.

[campbell]

I just wanted to better understand your "work hard" point.

Now to taxation again. So you favour a progressive tax system, then?

[tenkfeet]

The rich guy needs to change his accountant as he wont be paying 44.5%. It appears it is only us mug PAYE types who pay the amount of tax that is requested by HMRC.

In principle communism is the way forward but we know how that experiment went. Human nature is such that life will never be fair.

What is worse a rich guy not paying enough tax or a work shy waste of space who has never applied them self living of benefits? Not to be mistaken with genuine recipients.

Question is why does every government have to spend every penny they receive in tax?

[campbell]

Communism FTW! Lol.

HMRC set tax rules. Taxpayers have to interpret these rules. If HMRC set them without due care and attention, taxpayers may interpret them in a way HMRC did not desire (or foresee = benefit of the doubt to the rule makers there).

PAYE may be open to less interpretation than some other tax regimes in play, but even it is only as good as the people administering it inside each employer (or accountant to whom it's outsourced).

Alternatively we could go full crowdsourcing and just pay what you feel like.

[j2 lot]

Sometimes responsibility replaces hard (physical) work. A surgeon has to study and prove himself to reach his level of expertise and has constant responsibility on a life saving level. A road worker works hard physically but can go home without a care in the world.

Even on a less critical level, staff go in to be told what to do , Managers make sure they do it properly, meet standards (H&S and regulatory) and costs and suffer the penalty if they fail - bankruptcy/ jail etc.

Salaries reflect more than hard work.

[campbell]

But define "hard work"?

I think you just outlined several examples

[campbell]

I guess we're moving into ethical / philosophical territory here.

I think hard work should be rewarded. Laziness or corruption should not. The fruits of one's efforts must be taxed in line with the laws of the society and economy in which one chooses to earn them.

If one doesn't agree, one can relocate or establish one's own state.

Monaco or IOM, anyone ?!

[c8rkh]

Hard work isn't just physical, nor is it just intellectual. Some people on low pay work bloody hard, some people on low pay don't. Some people on high pay work hard, some don't. But where is the incentive to try to better ones self if in the end it just means you are giving 45%, 50% or more away to the tax man? We can harp on all day about the people on "millions" per year - for whatever reason these people are outside of normal taxation rules, but for those of us who are PAYE, paying 40, 45, 50% on every pound we earn hardly seems fair to me.

I believe that we have a duty to help those unfortunate enough who cannot help themselves, but that dies not mean work-shy buggers and maybe if these work shy buggers worked, there would be more going around for those who really need it, whilst not taxing out of existence those who do try to get a better life for themselves...

[Corranga]

Question is why does every government have to spend every penny they receive in tax?

If that was the case, we wouldn't need to have this thread. The problem is that they seemingly have to spend MORE than they receive in tax!

Chris

[robin]

But where is the incentive to try to better ones self if in the end it just means you are giving 45%, 50% or more away to the tax man? We can harp on all day about the people on "millions" per year - for whatever reason these people are outside of normal taxation rules, but for those of us who are PAYE, paying 40, 45, 50% on every pound we earn hardly seems fair to me.

In the 0-50K band most people pay the expected PAYE rate I think; for just about everyone above the 50K mark I would expect a degree of tax planning to kick in; certainly by the time you get to 100K you will be doing something. The government is fully co-operative in this - they allow you to transfer salary direct to pension missing out all forms of taxation.

Of course it might be a challenge to some to pay 45% of their income in tax and so they would rather earn less (odd choice, but there you go, there's nowt so queer as folk). The thing to remember is that as you earn more you have less (important stuff) to spend it on. So yes you "only" get to keep half of the extra cash but you've only got beer/sports cars to spend it on

Cheers,
Robin

[c8rkh]

Very true Robin, but I have a big belly that can store huge amounts of beer and 12 months ago I discovered Lotus cars and now I love them...

As I said. I have no problem paying the taxes I am due to pay, but I do "grudge" paying ever more of what I earn. At what point does it stop? Sometimes I feel that the government treats tax payers like a work-shy unemployed guy treats benefits - just easy money... My pension has been destroyed once thanks to Brown and Labour. Now Osborne and the Tories want to destroy what I have left. And at the grand old age of 50, after having paid taxes for 34 years I am told I need to work for another 19 years before I get my state pension - I firmly believe the Government hopes I'll be dead before then so they don't need to pay that out. Then on top of that Sturgeon and the SNP want me to pay an additional tax, over my colleagues and peers in England and Wales, just for the privilege of living in Scotland. ALL taxpayers are being hit from all sides - lower or higher rate, whilst some work-shy buggers just seem to get more and more for nothing and for doing nothing. I guess some people find that's fair.

So my private pensions get raped, pillaged and destroyed. My state pension age gets later. And then all the while I have people around me in the Private Sector retiring early, on gold edged pensions, that the government needs me to work for, for another 19 years to pay for, until I am 69, when they hope I will drop dead so they don't need to give me a paltry state pension. Some deal! lol

I guess I'm just a whinging tax payer who thinks that after paying in for 34 years, taking very little out, I deserve a little more beer and a reasonably priced sports car, hahahaha....

[campbell]

Not hearing whingeing at all.

I come back to my earlier point. I want to see my tax take SPENT more WISELY.

I am weary of hearing politicians bang on about "we poured millions into X" or "we have allocate gazillions to fund Y". Where's the efficiency? Where's the governance? Where's the accountability? Where's the business case?

THESE are the disciplines we are voting for. Not tax rates, not ideologies, not personalities. Common bloody sense.

Right I'm off for a gin and a lie down.

[pete]

no i am pointing out that the "rich" pay far more tax then the poor

The common view from the loony left is the rich pay ZERO tax

The article is based only on those who declare their income.

I'm not saying that the loony left are right, nor that you are wrong, just that the article says, "of those that declare their income"... Presumably if you didn't declare all your income, or had found a way to hide it, you wouldn't be in the list.

Do you know anyone wealthy who doesn't declare their income?

[pete]

Sometimes responsibility replaces hard (physical) work. A surgeon has to study and prove himself to reach his level of expertise and has constant responsibility on a life saving level. A road worker works hard physically but can go home without a care in the world.

Even on a less critical level, staff go in to be told what to do , Managers make sure they do it properly, meet standards (H&S and regulatory) and costs and suffer the penalty if they fail - bankruptcy/ jail etc.

Salaries reflect more than hard work.

This model world in which you live sounds exciting and forward thinking. I can literally think of no examples where managers have caused massive suffering and walked away scott free whcih would in any way call your world view into question.

[pete]

Hard work isn't just physical, nor is it just intellectual. Some people on low pay work bloody hard, some people on low pay don't. Some people on high pay work hard, some don't. But where is the incentive to try to better ones self if in the end it just means you are giving 45%, 50% or more away to the tax man? We can harp on all day about the people on "millions" per year - for whatever reason these people are outside of normal taxation rules, but for those of us who are PAYE, paying 40, 45, 50% on every pound we earn hardly seems fair to me.

I believe that we have a duty to help those unfortunate enough who cannot help themselves, but that dies not mean work-shy buggers and maybe if these work shy buggers worked, there would be more going around for those who really need it, whilst not taxing out of existence those who do try to get a better life for themselves...

Austerity / tax rises were driven by the bankers crashing the economy and the public, the tax-payers, bailing out the owners and managers of the banks. Not by the poor.

Just in case anyone forgot.