Views on Independence.

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rossybee
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by rossybee » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:25 pm

Sanjoy wrote:The problem is the majority of people of Scotland do not work and have no intention of working. I know this to be true, I know this
Sanjoy wrote:we just happen to have a nation who work as hard as possible to make sure they do not have to go to work
Sanjoy, utter bollocks.
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Sanjøy
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by Sanjøy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:39 pm

Worst of all both sides of this argument could produce figures proving their point, I would happily be proved wrong but the stats are too much of a political hot potato to ever be true. Hence I based my statement on the question I posed Alex and his response.
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rossybee
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by rossybee » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:43 pm

Try asking a DWP employee, or more specifically one with JCP.

They're better equipped to give an informed answer than Mr Salmond.
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Re: Cameron's speech.

Post by robin » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 am

Corranga wrote: They have included 16 / 17 year olds who on the whole, don't have a clue to up votes.
On the whole they are no more or less stupid than the rest of us (by definition). Having discussed the issue with a couple of our teenage acquaintances I would suggest that they are more able to discuss it sensibly than many. For every 16/17 year old ned, I can find you a similarly idiotic adult - probably wearing a football strip and chanting some sectarian nonsense :-)

I suspect Mr Osborne has made either a tactical error or pulled a blinder in being so vocal about the pound - and I cannot work out whose plan it is/was:

(1) Was it the (secret) plan of the SNP all along to back the currency union such that he would have to reject it and thus look arrogant (and be made to eat his words in the event of independence as surely they won't want a substantial quantity of pounds to be out side of their control and realistically independent Scotland would use the pound with or without formal currency union as there is not much other choice. His arrogance makes me cross, and I am a No voter - I hate to think on the impact on the undecided.

(2) Was it the (secret) plan of the Conservatives all along to reach this point because secretly they want Scotland to piss off and they quite like the idea of fewer (Scottish) labour MPs and the Scottish banks having no lender of last resort (though of course that is dumb, because there are no Scottish banks - they are owned by HM gov and the big institutional investors the world over - that one will backfire I suspect!). So they can be overtly unionist whilst pushing the unloved Scottish cousins away.

(3) Are they actually stupid and think that it is a gamble worth taking - hope the fear factor outweighs the outrage factor and sways voters to vote No? Surely people that have only small amounts of liquid cash won't be too fearted ((c) Robin, 2014 - you heard it here first); those with big deposits would get advice on how to mitigate the risk of there not being a viable currency union (and just leave their mega pounds in a rUK bank ... perhaps hiding it from Scottish Revenue & Customs along the way). The rest of us assume that one way or another shops will sell sh*t and we will buy it ... using drogma or pounds or, worst case, chicken heads!

(4) Do they subconsciously associate "Plan B" with "(I always) stay too long" ... i.e. please leave!

If it were me campaigning (honestly) for the better togethers I would avoid the whole economic debate. I would argue it's impossible to say whether you'll be better off or worse off but chances are it won't make that much difference, really. The real debate should be about whether or not the stability of being part of a larger entity is outweighed by the opportunities afforded a smaller one. Similarly are the risks of being small better than the burden of being part of the larger system. You could almost toss a coin to answer that. But why stop at splitting Scotland from UK - why not split Fife from the Lothians, etc., etc. At what point do you stop, and why?

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C7Steve
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by C7Steve » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:34 am

If the UK government think that Scotland is such a drain on their resources, then would they not be happy for Scotland to leave???????

Are they saying at the moment, "You're not getting to keep the pound", or "You can leave, but you're not getting to keep the pound".


Steve.

Ps. Just found this article;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-25847084

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David
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by David » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:11 am

I've put my views forward in other posts but the more I find out about the legal side of what might happen the more concerned I become. This is a unilateral vote (England, Wales and Northern Ireland are not voting) - we will be voting to 'LEAVE' the UK, we are not 'agreeing' to negotiate a split. International law will essentially favor the 'Remaining State' i.e. the 'Rest of the UK'. All institutions of the 'State' will remain with the 'Rest of the UK'. Theses are the Government, the currency, the Inland revenue, the armed forces, the NHS, Post office, the BBC, and many more (I think there are 77 in all and are basically any body that was set up by the Government or Royal Charter).

Scotland would have no legal right to share these and will have to start afresh. The assumption that we will have a 10 or 8% share of everything is wrong - we will be walking away, the door will be lock behind us.
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campbell
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by campbell » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:46 am

Anyone for Switzerland then?!
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tut
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Re: Cameron's speech.

Post by tut » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:51 am

robin wrote:
Corranga wrote: They have included 16 / 17 year olds who on the whole, don't have a clue to up votes.
But why stop at splitting Scotland from UK - why not split Fife from the Lothians, etc., etc. At what point do you stop, and why?

Cheers,
Robin
Now the latter is a jolly good idea.

I vote that Aberdeen should declare itself a Sovereign City-State à la Monaco, and break away completely. We would be loaded.

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neil
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by neil » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:50 am

Sanjoy wrote:The problem is the majority of people of Scotland do not work and have no intention of working. I know this to be true, I know this and I asked Alex and he agreed much work needed to be done back in 2009.
If that is true of Scotland, I'm sure the same or worse is true of rUK.

I spotted this interesting article in the well known SNP mouthpiece the FT... http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/5b5ec2ca-8a67 ... tml#slide0
According to that Scotland has 8.2% of the UK population yet 9.2% of the GDP.
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Lazydonkey
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by Lazydonkey » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:55 am

Take Aberdeen oil and edinburgh finance out of those figures and it looks much much worse though.

Glasgow has the highest unemployment in the UK IIRC
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neil
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by neil » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:58 am

Very true. But if you take the best bits out of anything it'll look far worse.

I guess the argument for independence is you'd end up with a goverment that could see outside of the M25, so hopefully the situation in Glasgow could be improved.
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by GraemeLotus » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:21 am

neil wrote:Very true. But if you take the best bits out of anything it'll look far worse.

I guess the argument for independence is you'd end up with a goverment that could see outside of the M25, so hopefully the situation in Glasgow could be improved.
It would always look much worse with the best bits removed; trouble is, one of the best bits is a finite resource with a price dictated not by us, and another one would have completely ceased to exist 6 years ago if it hadn't been bailed out by the people they want to leave.....

Agree with Robin - in all of this the economic debate could be avoided; the benfits to the man in the street (whether they are lying in the street or own it) could well be negligible - the actual costs of the exercise to find out will not.
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by Rosssco » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:46 pm

neil wrote: I guess the argument for independence is you'd end up with a goverment that could see outside of the M25, so hopefully the situation in Glasgow could be improved.
You often hear this, but purely for my information as I don't know, what particular (significant) aspects of government policy overly favours London at the expense of the rest of the UK?

Is it tax and spending policy, interest rates, focus on a specific London-based sector, etc. etc. or just pure policy decisions? Would it change significantly if the UK parliment and other government agencies moved to somewhere like Manchester, or is it the fact that our most sucessful city creates its own prosperity (like many other major cities around the world) and we're a bit jealous of them, so think the government has a bias...

Genuinely interested as its become an increasingly popular cry from those in other parts of the country, incl. Scotland, that they percieve themselves as marginalised..
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Scotty C
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by Scotty C » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:10 pm

Lazydonkey wrote:Take Aberdeen oil and edinburgh finance out of those figures and it looks much much worse though.

Glasgow has the highest unemployment in the UK IIRC
dont forget about the whiskey trade.
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tut
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Re: Views on Independence.

Post by tut » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:06 pm

Scotty C wrote:
Lazydonkey wrote:Take Aberdeen oil and edinburgh finance out of those figures and it looks much much worse though.

Glasgow has the highest unemployment in the UK IIRC
dont forget about the whiskey trade.
oh dear Scotty.........

tut

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