VAG emmisionsgate what now?

[pete]

Do they really deserve to be reamed for £61bn?

If they've deliberately set out to undermine the pollution legislation that is put in place by the government to protect the population then they deserve a very severe penalty.

One might argue the legislation isn't fit for purpose and make little difference in the real world but that isn't really the point. There's an element of trust when the vehicles are submitted for testing and when they find systematic cheating by a manufacturer they are going to be livid, and rightly so.

Burn 'em.

Hang on, errm anyone want to buy a Golf GTi? One careful owner.

[Dominic]

Hang on, errm anyone want to buy a Golf GTi? One careful owner.

Which owner was that?

[Scuffers]

Do they really deserve to be reamed for £61bn?

If they've deliberately set out to undermine the pollution legislation that is put in place by the government to protect the population then they deserve a very severe penalty..

not as simple as that.

the legislation is that they have a test to pass, they made the cars pass the test, any "real world" testing is irrelevant.

the problem for VW in the US is that their rules define that any 'device' used to affect aid test is illegal, there is no such rule/law in the EU tests.

Yes, what they did is effectively circumventing the test limits, however, consider that they are not alone (the only difference is how they achieved it), and that subsequently, the EU6 limits have been changed (because nobody could legitimately meet them).

[pete]

Hang on, errm anyone want to buy a Golf GTi? One careful owner.

Which owner was that?

The first guy, the next three, less so.

[pete]

Do they really deserve to be reamed for £61bn?

If they've deliberately set out to undermine the pollution legislation that is put in place by the government to protect the population then they deserve a very severe penalty..

not as simple as that.

the legislation is that they have a test to pass, they made the cars pass the test, any "real world" testing is irrelevant.

the problem for VW in the US is that their rules define that any 'device' used to affect aid test is illegal, there is no such rule/law in the EU tests.

Yes, what they did is effectively circumventing the test limits, however, consider that they are not alone (the only difference is how they achieved it), and that subsequently, the EU6 limits have been changed (because nobody could legitimately meet them).

Sorry I should have been clearer, I was referring to the US fines. I hadn't seen any suggestions that they be fined in Europe.

[robin]

My point was merely practical - I would rather evade a £61billion fine than pay it and I cannot believe that it is in any way representative of the true cost of any damage caused (whatever that might actually be).

To put in perspective the total cost of the environmental disaster that was deepwater horizon was $60billion (dollars, not pounds) and that included substantial claims from just about anybody that could claim to have ever been anywhere near there and more than $20billion in state/federal fines.

I agree they shouldn't have cheated the test, but in their shoes I would open the negotiations (because that's what this will be) with a willingness to close down all operations in the US.

Cheers,
Robin

[rossybee]

To put in perspective the total cost of the environmental disaster that was deepwater horizon was $60billion (dollars, not pounds) and that included substantial claims from just about anybody that could claim to have ever been anywhere near there and more than $20billion in state/federal fines.

I think it should also be pointed out (seems to be less important than the environmental impact to many, or even forgotten about) that 11 souls were lost in this incident.

[mckeann]

don be so precious Rossybee, nobody was ignoring that fact

[rossybee]

Precious?

[mckeann]

just comes across as a bit of a " i work offshore, lets remind everyone how dangerous it is so they worry about me" kind of post

[rossybee]

That's your opinion Neil.

I don't expect anyone to worry about me when away, especially on S_E...

I work in an office offshore these days

[robin]

To put in perspective the total cost of the environmental disaster that was deepwater horizon was $60billion (dollars, not pounds) and that included substantial claims from just about anybody that could claim to have ever been anywhere near there and more than $20billion in state/federal fines.

I think it should also be pointed out (seems to be less important than the environmental impact to many, or even forgotten about) that 11 souls were lost in this incident.

It was the environmental impact that I was comparing as that's what's relevant in this context, though you are right that the disaster had wider impact than "just" the environment - in particular the deaths caused by it - I am not sure that the deaths "cost" BP much though, compared to the environmental tidy up, compensation, fines.

Interestingly (and worryingly for VAG, perhaps) is that somebody will soon be along to prove that the extra NOx gasses produced by non-compliant diesel engines will (statistically) be responsible for some number of deaths (ignoring all the deaths caused by compliant engines, obvz). Cue more class actions ...

Cheers,
Robin

[graeme]

I think it should also be pointed out (seems to be less important than the environmental impact to many, or even forgotten about) that 11 souls were lost in this incident.

Only 10 souls. One was ginger.

[rossybee]

I think it should also be pointed out (seems to be less important than the environmental impact to many, or even forgotten about) that 11 souls were lost in this incident.

Only 10 souls. One was ginger.

Touché!

[rossybee]

Robin, just to clarify, my comment was in no way a dig at your omission of mention of the deaths, more that in general the environmental impact seemed to create a far bigger media impact, which I think is wrong.

F*ck all to do with my personal employment or how precious I am.

I'm off to have a waxing and then my nails done.