Scotland's Electricity base load from 2030

[pete]

None of the tree huggers ever stop to consider that a windmill requires more energy to manufacture and install than it will produce in it's lifetime. IMHO that deems it useless. No one in their right mind would say "I am going to start a business that will only ever turnover £1M, but will cost £2M to start up".

Just my 2p from listening to engineers involved in building the things.

Sorry mate that's simply not true. OK you could, in theory, site one so badly that it didn't make any power - perhaps inside a building, miles from the grid - but if they are sited properly it only takes a few weeks to cover their manufacture costs. I don't know who you've listening to but maybe they were drunk...

[neil]

None of the tree huggers ever stop to consider that a windmill requires more energy to manufacture and install than it will produce in it's lifetime. IMHO that deems it useless. No one in their right mind would say "I am going to start a business that will only ever turnover £1M, but will cost £2M to start up".

Just my 2p from listening to engineers involved in building the things.

Sorry mate that's simply not true. OK you could, in theory, site one so badly that it didn't make any power - perhaps inside a building, miles from the grid - but if they are sited properly it only takes a few weeks to cover their manufacture costs. I don't know who you've listening to but maybe they were drunk...

I'm afraid I agree with Dom on this one. It maybe doesn't take long to cover their manufacturing costs but that's only because we pay such a ridiculous amount for any energy produced by them and also take everything that's produced - if there's an excess of generation then it's the nasty carbon emitters that get cut back first which doesn't actually save anything as you can't just turn a coal station off so you just end up burning the coal wastefully.

Here's a typical power generation curve for a wind turbine:

Going by that you only get it's rated power output with steady wind speeds of between 12 & 25m/s, at which point it cuts out (obviously the exact speeds will depend on the specific turbine but the principle remains the same). So the question is how much of the time does the wind blow between these speeds? I don't know the answer to that but I do know it's not predictable so you've got to have something else to take the load when the winds not blowing.

While it's very easy to point the finger at the current crop of politicians (UK & Scottish Gov) for the upcoming base load issues, this is something that has been known about for a long time and every set of politicians have just kicked the can down the road and left it for the next lot to sort out. This is something I studied at Uni almost 20 years ago now so presumably since well before then we've had the technical bods well aware of it and the politicians chosing to ignore it.

Nuclear is the most sensible option but as we now don't have any expertise left in the country then we'll have to buy it in which makes things hideously expensive. We did actually still have nuclear expertise up until 2009 when they abolished BNFL http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C_BNF ... 10103.html

[Dominic]

None of the tree huggers ever stop to consider that a windmill requires more energy to manufacture and install than it will produce in it's lifetime. IMHO that deems it useless. No one in their right mind would say "I am going to start a business that will only ever turnover £1M, but will cost £2M to start up".

Just my 2p from listening to engineers involved in building the things.

Sorry mate that's simply not true. OK you could, in theory, site one so badly that it didn't make any power - perhaps inside a building, miles from the grid - but if they are sited properly it only takes a few weeks to cover their manufacture costs. I don't know who you've listening to but maybe they were drunk...

Was not talking about the costs in terms of money (although used the business case as an example). Fact remains, they do require more energy to build than they will ever produce. On that basis they will only ever take energy from the grid and never fully repay it.

[graeme]

Citation needed.

[mckeann]

It's a Stat that I'd heard mentioned before but no idea on the validity, but it was more to do with CO2

http://stopthesethings.com/2014/08/16/h ... d-turbine/

[mckeann]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/e ... tists.html

[mckeann]

And this article says it's all sh*t.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-m ... r-lifetime

[graeme]

The only credible link I can find:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 810900055X

Only going by the abstract though, not paying for the article.

[kenny]

(*the belief that climate change isn't an issue is alongside anti-vaxers, fake moon landers and the idea the US govt blew up the World Trade Centre. ).

ha, the derisive dismissal followed by :insertcondescendingsmiley.gif: standard Pete reply, never gets old.

For the record, yet again, I doubt anyone on here disputes the moon landings, I don't. I have argued against some seriously scary people regarding the world trade centre collapse, i.e. I am quite satisfied the official reports are correct. And, I don't think climate change is a conspiracy requiring a new tin foil hat, I just query the impact of man made emissions of carbon dioxide into a chaotic and complex system with many other stronger variables.

2/10 : made me reply

[kenny]

Any topic on a Scottish forum about plastic cars will eventually blame either Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP for it

The forth road bridge is shut, that sturgeon woman ruins everything.

Lotus cars are getting to heavy because the SNP

you get bonus points for using Godwin's law as well.

Jeannie is in charge of the SNP who are in charge of an insane energy policy based on pie-in-the-sky hope that in 15 years time completely new renewable energy infrastructure will be in place generating power from yet undeveloped technology and power schemes.

So, yeah, we might have to point a finger at her on this one.

1/10 try harder next time.

[kenny]

If you want you can find an online article that proves windpower is the saviour of mankind, you can also find one that proves it will give you cancer and bad aids.

There is massive political propaganda surrounding this whole issue. Avoid parroting the cliches and political lines and delve a little deeper and you will be absolutely incredulous. I wont claim it will change your overall opinion but you will be gobsmacked at some of the lunacy of some politicians (from all parties).

Ultimately, as Campbell raised in the OP, we are stumbling towards serious energy issues.

[thinfourth]

Was not talking about the costs in terms of money (although used the business case as an example). Fact remains, they do require more energy to build than they will ever produce. On that basis they will only ever take energy from the grid and never fully repay it.

I call balls on that too

Not because i am a tree hugger

But because cash = energy

not an exact or steady ratio but pretty much cash = energy


And to make a profit from a windy mill then i cannot see more energy being put into making one then you get out of one.

And i live in the middle of wind farm and it has to be pretty blowy before they stop and they are going most of the time

And living in the middle of a wind farm is great

Not only has the access road taken 5 miles off the trip to the chip shop but we are pretty much 100% guaranteed not to have any SNP voters nearby

As they would never build a council estate next to us because of the turbines

So no council house = no SNP voters

[Mikie711]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as the surface area required in solar panels to power the entire world, current technology panels not some super duper panel.

[j2 lot]

As you've asked I guess it will be something like the surface of the earth needs to be covered to power the earth?

But if Wee Jimmy Krankies dream of producing all our own power by the end of next week is to be realised we need to be using every last option to get what generation we can. A few solar panels on a house won't power that house but it will reduce the load it requires and of course save the owner at least some £ that will be heading off to France or China otherwise.

[pete]

(*the belief that climate change isn't an issue is alongside anti-vaxers, fake moon landers and the idea the US govt blew up the World Trade Centre. ).

ha, the derisive dismissal followed by :insertcondescendingsmiley.gif: standard Pete reply, never gets old.

I always thought the smiley was there to show I knew I was being cheeky! Kinda make me sound irreverent rather than mean.

For the record, yet again, I doubt anyone on here disputes the moon landings, I don't. I have argued against some seriously scary people regarding the world trade centre collapse, i.e. I am quite satisfied the official reports are correct. And, I don't think climate change is a conspiracy requiring a new tin foil hat, I just query the impact of man made emissions of carbon dioxide into a chaotic and complex system with many other stronger variables.

2/10 : made me reply

I've seen that written on homework more than once. Did you used to teach me? (Probably not any of the sciences though. Maybe humanities?)*




*Oh come on that's funny. We should discuss this over beer, it would be excellent, I'll wear my Greenpeace t-shirt and I'm sure I can find an SNP badge somewhere...
Although, thinking about it, do you ever get violent? I don't and I do have a good turn of acceleration over short distances, should the evening end badly, but I'm not good over distance.