Lotus Elise Cup 250

[Mikie711]

The problem Lotus faces is that the newer cars although a step up technologically, build quality and safety wise they have lost some of the rawness that appealed to so many. In a way they have got caught up in the power race where more is perceived to be better. Much of that has been lead by the customers so I guess we only have our selves to blame but some has been perpetuated by the top trumps mentality when comparing different makes.
My cup is a quantum leap from my S2 exige and even from AU55 111r SC 260, which was pretty mental, but somehow just not as engaging as previous Elise's. Don't get me wrong it does everything better but there isn't as much "challenge" involved in driving it quickly and it isn't as much of an event taking it out for a run.

[robin]

For starters you won't need your AA card when you go out for a run

[Bobby]

At first sight, I was thinking it would have been nice to wait for that rather than the 220 Cup I have, then thinking about whether the engine upgrades could be retrofitted. Actually looking at the figures, just looks like you get a higher rev limit, but same torque (possibly over a wider range, but figures are not comparable, as 220's peak torque is quoted @ 4600rpm, 350's @ 3500-5500).

[Corranga]

Great thread, with almost opposite views on what they need to do next.

For me, most on here want a new revolution. I don't think it's about new parts, or new styling, I think it's about a

I remember when MG Rover released the ZR / S / T. The story (probably true) was that the big wigs sat around and said they have money to redevelop 1 of the 3 major components. Styling, engine or chassis (handling). They chose the later, and from what I've read (though never experienced) those MGs were actually pretty decent to drive.

Lotus already have the decent to drive bit, so for me, that leaves styling and engine. The engines seem to be pretty well sorted too, so styling is left over.
I'd have thought (with no knowledge of these things!) that the Elise platform lends itself pretty well for a different shape of fibreglass to be stuck on top with minimal add on bodge mods to hold it. I think that's where my money would be going in the short term if I were Lotus. I think it would generate enough press etc. to sell, and would answer what I see as the biggest issue with the current Elise. It looks like the one they've been making for 16 years.

Longer term, I think Woody is 100% right, a re-engineering of the boring bits that regular consumers don't care about in order to provide what they do care about.
Lower entry for comfort, pre-engineered solutions for higher spec / models to save weight and a more up to date appearance, some focus on the handling / suspension / geometry, maybe making to easier to fine tune or something. A functional, lightweight but designed interior would very much suit the Elise.
Would this work? Well, the improvements to general daily use would help out normal punters, and the weight saving / handling mods would help those on here looking for a rawer package.

Would it stop conversations on Lotus making a car that is basically the same as the S2 from 2000 (or even the S1 from 95), personally I don't think so.
The problem here is fundamentally the design of the Elise. The extruded and bonded aluminium chassis is the problem. It was such a revolutionary idea that I think people somehow expect something completely different for a new Elise. If a proper new Elise comes along, with lower sills, more tunable suspension, with perhaps the required chassis strengthening / safety design in such a way that it can host components to save space and weight, or whatever else they can do with it, it will still be seen as an evolution of the S1 / S2 tub, because the extruded aluminium tub is such a rarity that people will simply assume it's related, or an evolution. Personally, I don't think this is a problem.

[ryallm]

I reckon the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' approach to Elise development is one which would have Colin Chapman turning in his grave. I want to see Lotus innovate and come up with interesting engineering solutions as they have done in the past, not simply tinker round the edges of an old design. What could they do for the next Elise that could be radically different? I have no idea, but if you had asked me back in 95, I would have had no idea that Lotus were about to come up with a car using a bonded aluminium chassis. It really was a step change in design at the time. I would like to see a completely new Elise that moves the game on in the way the original did. I don't think it is all about resources either - the S1 was developed on a tiny budget.

[Mikie711]

I guess the next step is to move to a composite or carbon fibre tub and move a way from aluminium all together. Alfa did it with the 4c so no reason Lotus couldn't accomplish similar. Likely the capital investment is what is holding back development of a new range hence the constant revisions to the existing line up.
Unless they consider the bonded tub to be a signature piece of their car like Porsche with the 911 which is another car that has evolved over many year without radically changing from model to model.

[Ryan]

like Porsche with the 911 which is another car that has evolved over many year without radically changing from model to model

Porsche then moved to electric steering and a lot of enthusiasts say it lost a great deal of what made it special. Would the same happen if Lotus changed away from the alu tub?

[woody]

The 4c is quite a bit more expensive than an elise, also with a 4 pot. The numbers are apparently limited by the production capacity of the place that makes the tub & they're apparently making a loss/not much on it as a figurehead for the range.

Lotus already own the company that make their tubs. The alu tubs are cheaply tooled, they have the IP & the understanding of how to make the most of it now.

Carbon is getting cheaper, but much of the cheaper & more mass produced stuff has been developed by companies for their own use; Boeing, BMW i models, Lambo etc... Strength/rigidity per kg & marketing aside, I can't see any reason for them to go down the carbon route & very much doubt they will.

Worth also remembering that while the S1 was developed on a shoestring, Federalizing the s2 cost several multiples of that. US reqwuirements are another thing that can be designed in from the outset with a clean sheet.

[Bobby]

I remember Gales saying the Alfa tub only saved about 3kg. Also increased cost there would mean either higher prices or compromises in other components (where weight can also be saved). Even if the 3kg figure is optimistic, the tub's still way less than 10% of total weight. Carbon seems as much about marketing as anything else.

Mind you, if carbon gave more flexibility in chassis design such that your could fit a track-day helmet in the boot, that'd be good!

[rawsco]

As in the push bike industry... I suspect carbon doesn't really save that much weight but it can deliver a massively stiffer chassis in the planes that need to be stiff and compliance in the planes that don't this shedding a little weight. I believe it's this that differentiates carbon from alloys and the fact I can be made into all sorts of odd shapes!

A carbon tubbed lotus would be great till you dinged the tub!

[woody]

by coincidence...

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... paa-vej%2F

[Mikie711]

I take your point woody but with the Alu tub the design will always be constrained by the sills as that is where much of the stiffness comes from. Composite technology has got to be the way ahead if only for the flexibility that it gives you in both design and strength.
The elise was innovative in it's day and the basic engineering concept hasn't changed that much.

[Scotty C]

So what do we really want lotus to build.

a 400hp, 1 ton Elise with a carbon tub for £30k?

I think they have all bases covered.

[BigD]

So what do we really want lotus to build.

a 400hp, 1 ton Elise with a carbon tub for £30k?

I think they have all bases covered.

Did you see that carbon tub that woody linked to, it still had the high sills etc and just looked like a copy of the Alu one but made of carbon. If carbon is much more expensive then what's the point as not many cars will sell.

[Mikie711]

So what do we really want lotus to build.

a 400hp, 1 ton Elise with a carbon tub for £30k?

I think they have all bases covered.

You miss the point, a company has to move forward, any company has to do this to survive which is probably more relevant to a small niche manufacturer like Lotus. For them I think they need to innovate to attract sales. You can't keep churning out variations on a theme for ever more. At some point you have to move the game on and I fear that they are been caught by the competition. They have been surviving off of a 20 year old design. How far can they take the same basic ingredients and still keep it fresh.