Independence SE Poll

[Dominic]

Dom look what you have done man!

[David]

Not at all, I don't really believe any of them and most of the no campaigns scare mongering is exactly that, scare tactics at there very best. My major concern is a re-write of the Barnett Formula forcing the then Scottish government to push up tax to cover the shortfall. Something that hasn't happened yet but would be considerably more likely post referendum. So in essence Westminster would take the same out but give less back leaving a financial shortfall that would lead to either cuts in spending or increases in taxation. All this done under the cloak of devolving more power north of the border but retaining control of the purse strings south of the border.

The biggest fear is the back lash, post referendum, from the English and Welsh MP's who have considerably more influence due to far greater numbers than us.

The genie is already out of the bottle and we can't put it back. All this talk tells me is that as a nation we have no belief or confidence in our ability to adapt and change with out someone there to catch us if we fall. We a refusing to take charge of our own country and make sh*t happen which quite frankly is I find really sad. As a small nation we have already given the world so much and have so much more to give but lack the investment, creative as well as technologically, to produce the goods. Even on here, this forum, there is clearly some brilliant people capable of incredible things and this is just a small part of the whole. Politicians be damned it's the people that make a Nation and I for one believe that we are capable of more given the right investment that isn't then taken away to fund something were there are more voters a couple of years later that results in the collapse of the industry/technology/science.

We are not voting for Salmond, SNP, Lib Dem, Labor or Tory we are being ask should Scotland be an independent Nation. I don't care what they call themselves so long as they have Scotland's interests at heart and write policy accordingly. No hidden agenda, just the countries best interests first. And I know there will still be a North South divide and rightly so, as the majority of the people stay in the central belt but at least it will still be in Scotland not the SE of England.

We are a proud nation capable of so much, we have so much more already than most small nations and refuse to see the potential.

But feel free to dissect, refute and ridicule the above because we have become very very good at that.

That's a nicely written piece Mikie, but it does hold a few ironies. To say the Barnnett formula will change after the vote is as much Scarmongering as any of the NO arguments.

At the time of writing this the vote was 60% for NO so I guess that means that many of us believe that we are not being robbed by the south east and are getting at least a fair deal. In fact, the concept that Scotland's wealth filters down south never to return is quite offensive to me. With friends and family in that part of the country, I know they probably work harder, for longer hours, pay more in taxes, draw less on the NHS and benefits system and have a quality of life that is no better than ours. They are the engine room of the UK economy and Scotland benefits greatly from that. It is not a good idea to isolate ourselves from a resource that dwarfs North Sea oil. Nationalism can be a good thing, but it can also be a negative - if it is allowed to put up barriers based on racist arguments.

[BigD]

Not at all, I don't really believe any of them and most of the no campaigns scare mongering is exactly that, scare tactics at there very best. My major concern is a re-write of the Barnett Formula forcing the then Scottish government to push up tax to cover the shortfall. Something that hasn't happened yet but would be considerably more likely post referendum. So in essence Westminster would take the same out but give less back leaving a financial shortfall that would lead to either cuts in spending or increases in taxation. All this done under the cloak of devolving more power north of the border but retaining control of the purse strings south of the border.

The biggest fear is the back lash, post referendum, from the English and Welsh MP's who have considerably more influence due to far greater numbers than us.

The genie is already out of the bottle and we can't put it back. All this talk tells me is that as a nation we have no belief or confidence in our ability to adapt and change with out someone there to catch us if we fall. We a refusing to take charge of our own country and make sh*t happen which quite frankly is I find really sad. As a small nation we have already given the world so much and have so much more to give but lack the investment, creative as well as technologically, to produce the goods. Even on here, this forum, there is clearly some brilliant people capable of incredible things and this is just a small part of the whole. Politicians be damned it's the people that make a Nation and I for one believe that we are capable of more given the right investment that isn't then taken away to fund something were there are more voters a couple of years later that results in the collapse of the industry/technology/science.

We are not voting for Salmond, SNP, Lib Dem, Labor or Tory we are being ask should Scotland be an independent Nation. I don't care what they call themselves so long as they have Scotland's interests at heart and write policy accordingly. No hidden agenda, just the countries best interests first. And I know there will still be a North South divide and rightly so, as the majority of the people stay in the central belt but at least it will still be in Scotland not the SE of England.

We are a proud nation capable of so much, we have so much more already than most small nations and refuse to see the potential.

But feel free to dissect, refute and ridicule the above because we have become very very good at that.

That's a nicely written piece Mikie, but it does hold a few ironies. To say the Barnnett formula will change after the vote is as much Scarmongering as any of the NO arguments.

At the time of writing this the vote was 60% for NO so I guess that means that many of us believe that we are not being robbed by the south east and are getting at least a fair deal. In fact, the concept that Scotland's wealth filters down south never to return is quite offensive to me. With friends and family in that part of the country, I know they probably work harder, for longer hours, pay more in taxes, draw less on the NHS and benefits system and have a quality of life that is no better than ours. They are the engine room of the UK economy and Scotland benefits greatly from that. It is not a good idea to isolate ourselves from a resource that dwarfs North Sea oil. Nationalism can be a good thing, but it can also be a negative - if it is allowed to put up barriers based on racist arguments.

Good points David. My issue with the whole 'Scots running Scotland' thing is that it is segregating people by which country they live in. Scotland is made up of a rich and diverse community regardless of where your parents, grandparents or great grandparents originated. Scots who’s distant relatives started somewhere else are just as Scottish as you or I. That’s what makes us what we are an integrated community but this separatist policy flies in the face of that. I really don’t get the infatuation around not wanting English people involved in our politics. (Does this mean we have to take George Galloway back if we become independent?) Is it just all about money?

Where does it end, does Aberdeen start complaining that all of 'their' oil money is being used in the central belt and that they don't have a voice so want to become a separate nation and keep their money to themselves? Aberdeen being run by Aberdonians for Aberdonians! You could make a case for any of these options if you really wanted.

To me the whole thing is a Salmond power trip and it works while there is a Tory government in power as it feeds off the Thatcher hatred.

If Scotland gets independence then we will be Labour led for many years. Scotland will never vote Tory in any significant numbers for at least 3 generations so we are left with 2 parties (SNP being minor) both fairly left wing and that is not very good for politics or the Country. In my view Labour are traditionally high taxation, high costs as everyone gets a job at the council whether or not they are any good at it. I’m much more in favour of people being responsible for their own actions not being handheld and gifted a living. Labour councils are continually overspending and who pays for that, yep us? Whilst the councillors and their chums make a very good living working for the Council. Corruption is rife. I used to work for a building company who got work by doing freebies for the local council officials. They just expected to get everything given to them..............

I’d much rather have a bigger voting public taking into account people from various backgrounds, from the City and the South East to the old industrialised areas (of which Scotland is mostly made up of).
I just don’t think the current crop of Scottish politicians have the where with all to be able to run a country for the benefit of the country and not for their own ends.

[Mikie711]

David,
Changes to Barnett formula have been talked about for far longer than the referendum. A no vote just presents a climate where by the changes are are far easier to implement.
Your second comment I take great offense to, you know absolutely nothing about me and have no right to insinuate that "your friends" work harder, pay more taxes and drain less from the country than I or indeed anybody else regardless of the their quality of life.

Bid D
It's about Scotland governing Scotland there is a difference. There is more than just Scots voting in the referendum.

[Dominic]

I could find myself easily being offended by anyone saying their are voting Yes / or campaigning for it, as to me it is such a clear and obvious choice to vote "No", for my interests, and the best interests of Scotland. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion and their vote, so, as difficult as it may be, I accept that not everyone will agree with me, without taking offence.

[David]

David,
Your second comment I take great offense to, you know absolutely nothing about me and have no right to insinuate that "your friends" work harder, pay more taxes and drain less from the country than I or indeed anybody else regardless of the their quality of life.

That's the paranoia that concerns me. It's my opinion , it's not aimed at you, or any individual for that matter, just based on my general experiences from having lived and worked in both parts of the country.

There's nothing special about the South East, it is just where much of the economic success has tended to gravitated to - it's just a bit thinner on the ground up here. Where it is located is irrelevant, unless we decide to put up barriers.

[Rosssco]

Nationalism is effectively just another name for Tribalism.. Its a them and us culture that has had its edges smoothed off by the SNP to become an easier pill to swallow. Hence why all Scots are referred to as a collective who will ultimately want the same thing, when in reality, we want 90-95% of the same things as the rest of the people in the UK, hence why it makes sense to have some form of centralised control of certain major issues.

The idea that "we will always get the government we vote for" is just another way of saying the Scottish parliment will have more power. We already get the government we vote for, its just that it doesn't have all the power to do what it wants with regards to tax and spending, which is shared with other parts of the UK (for good reasons ultimately). As noted above, if you want to insist it's a democratic issue, then power shouldn't be sent to Holyrood. It should be further devolved to local authorites. These powers would then be used significnatly differently depending if you lived in Glasgow, Aberdeen or Shetland.

I'm pretty sure if you took the Manchester / Liverpool area and took their election results, it would come back with a fairly similar result to Scotland with regards to governments. So should they consider forming an independant state? No, but perhaps a more federalised system with more local accountablity would feel more democratic?

One of the things I find most interesting is the level if feeling in the "campaign" because its based on a pretense of nationality. I bet most of these people would never bother to go out and support a party political ideal, look to change a vote in European elections, or organise local meetings to discuss the changes to a local council. All things that could affect their lives and of their relatives just as much as Scotland becoming independant.

[BigD]

Bid D
It's about Scotland governing Scotland there is a difference. There is more than just Scots voting in the referendum.

A country can't govern, it takes politicians to do that and therein lies my problem with Scotland governing Scotland.

[Rosssco]

Bid D
It's about Scotland governing Scotland there is a difference. There is more than just Scots voting in the referendum.

A country can't govern, it takes politicians to do that and therein lies my problem with Scotland governing Scotland.

Exactly. And it's not just worrying that we made end up with the SNP (for however long), but that the political opposition is almost completely incoherent and ineffectual..

[pete]

Good points David. My issue with the whole 'Scots running Scotland' thing is that it is segregating people by which country they live in.

So are you pro-Europe BigD?

And if so are you pro-Euro?

[campbell]

This is why we had previously avoided an SE Referendum poll. Albeit everyone's been quite well behaved so far.

Let's not fall into the trap of creating our own divisions over this. There will be enough of those to deal with from 19 September.

The focus of Alex's power trip should be economics. These will affect me for a few more decades, but my children for the best part of a century. In a global economy - for that is what's in place now - you need scale. As part of the UK, we have that scale, yet can still enable our Scottish identity to show through.

A case in point was the Commonwealth Games. The "home nations" won lots if medals for their specific country. Lots of Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English glory, and rightly so. Yet for 95% of the time they train together as Team GB. That's what actually underpins the success.

[BigD]

Good points David. My issue with the whole 'Scots running Scotland' thing is that it is segregating people by which country they live in.

So are you pro-Europe BigD?

And if so are you pro-Euro?

Anti Europe and anti Euro. Happy to have relaxed borders but see no need to share currency or central banks. Por Qué?

[ruadh08]

This is why we had previously avoided an SE Referendum poll. Albeit everyone's been quite well behaved so far.

Let's not fall into the trap of creating our own divisions over this. There will be enough of those to deal with from 19 September.

The focus of Alex's power trip should be economics. These will affect me for a few more decades, but my children for the best part of a century. In a global economy - for that is what's in place now - you need scale. As part of the UK, we have that scale, yet can still enable our Scottish identity to show through.

A case in point was the Commonwealth Games. The "home nations" won lots if medals for their specific country. Lots of Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English glory, and rightly so. Yet for 95% of the time they train together as Team GB. That's what actually underpins the success.

Very well said Campbell!!

[pete]

Good points David. My issue with the whole 'Scots running Scotland' thing is that it is segregating people by which country they live in.

So are you pro-Europe BigD?

And if so are you pro-Euro?

Anti Europe and anti Euro. Happy to have relaxed borders but see no need to share currency or central banks. Por Qué?

You described independence as segregating people using the essentially artificial defining set of a country, so I wondered where that stopped, do you accept the "set" of Britain but not of Scotland. In which case I was wondering if you'd be pro a federal Europe, ie extending Europe and doing away with the artificial "set" of Britain and just accepting we are all European.

[David]

A case in point was the Commonwealth Games. The "home nations" won lots if medals for their specific country. Lots of Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English glory, and rightly so. Yet for 95% of the time they train together as Team GB. That's what actually underpins the success.

That's it in a nutshell!

On a personal level, what I took away from the games was how well the regional factions of the Beeb worked together to allow Scotland to punch well above it's weight as the host broadcaster. It certainly made me feel proud of Scotland. Alex's vision for the future of Broadcasting in Scotland wouldn't have achieved that. I'm sure many of the other disciplines involved in the game were similar.

During the games there was a YES protest outside the BBC Scotland. I say a protest as they were protesting about the BBC bias in the referendum coverage, and presumably they felt this was a good opportunity to canvas support. Their numbers were in the tens and they soon dispatched after a hostile reception from the thousands of visiting public to 'BBC at the Quay'. I remember thinking how ironic it was. When the NO minded people are stirred, they do put up a fight, and in big numbers.