The Referendum

[pete]

What infuriates for me is how Eck has managed to sneak through the 16 year old votes... They aren't old enough to be trusted with alcohol or a driving license, but can be trusted to have a balanced view on the future of our nation? I know 16 year old me would probably have voted 'yes' in a torrent of pride and misplaced bravado, but older me sees the big picture. It's the most transparent example of his trying to load the dice in the most cynical fashion - for that alone, I hate the man.

Really? I don't think I really hate anyone, at least anyone who isn't a murderer/rapist etc.

But you're right driving a car is an important decider in who should vote. Driving and buying cigarettes.

I mean I know some people, wishy washy liberals mainly, cite joining the army, getting married and having children as being perhaps more relevant indicators of when people should be able to vote but they're idiots Shug and I hate them.

At a time when the green shoots of recovery are showing, why on earth would we want to cut free from the stabilising force of the UK Exchequer? Given the level of talent visible in Scottish politics, I'd be terrified to live in a country where all our livelihoods depended on them getting it right.

Well, it is easy to confuse the green shoots of recovery with a housing bubble, with some people even trying to short the London property market.
Again.
You might remember that "the Westminster lot" presided over, or were the cheerleaders for, the worst economic crash in 80 years, where are multiple of our GDP was spent either bailing out banks or was stripped from the economy by the fall out. This is not my opinion but a fact.
The devolved side of the Scottish economy has actually, by all reports I've read, been doing OK. The quiet man of Scottish politics has been keeping his job successfully out of the media glare.



But all that means is that the Scotch have no experience of disaster management and fire fighting. And if the events of recent years have taught us anything it's that economics is all about front page headlines, tears and suicides. So I agree with you rather Westminster in charge than someone unproven!!!
Better the devil you know.

Mike - I hear what you're saying about the theoretical possibilities for Scotland alone, but looking at the stuffed turnips in Holyrood on the news every night, can you put your hand on your heart and tell me you think they are remotely capable of running a country. I'm sorry, the people in Westminster aren't faultless, but it's a level above the dross that's filtered into Holyrood...

Well absolutely. Whenever I see Gideon Osborne on TV I feel a warm sense of security. Whether he's talking about how Scottish people are all going to pay for a new train line from Birmingham to London, or how they have all paid for last year's Olympics and associated party, or how Scotland is going to subsidise a London housing boom.
Again.

Each time I think "that's the sort of chap I want in charge".

But it's your underlying point I agree with most that independence is not about self determination, or economics, or the future of Scotland and how we can best maximise our potential.
It's about the people you see on the TV, the people who are the spokespeople for the power brokers.
The individuals.
The personalities.
The politicians.
You and I have clearly matured watching the same reality TV shows and if it has taught us anything it is that the way people come across that counts.
The clothes they wear.

Whether or not they look like turnips.

Finally (and the telling point, personally) - nobody has yet explained to me why I don't want to be British? I've grown up exceptionally proud of my Scottish heritage, gone through the period in my youth where I railed against English rule, then realised that being British as well as Scottish is a source of pride for me as well. Scotland has been a cornerstone of Britain for hundreds of years - in the last hundred, our part has been acknowledged more and more. I don't feel a desire to turn my back on that.

Well that's even more true for me than you, so I agree unreservedly. If there was independence you'd HAVE to turn your back on Scotland's heritage. All of history would be re-written, we'd wake up one morning to a world that was strangely reminiscent of a Bradbury novel with HUGE piles of books burning in the streets!
I for one Shug will not stand for this desire to turn your back on this history and I will fight alongside you, or possibly slightly behind you and to one side, to save this history for our children, and our children's children.

pete

[Shug]

Perhaps best let the orderlies back up mate

[Ferg]

Just to throw a hypothetical question in as it something I was wondering. Given that to achieve some of the goals stated, and however pie in the sky some of them maybe I do appreciate that they have appeal to some demographics, taxes will likely rise. While many taxes can be geographic, i believe income tax is harder to manage this way. I wonder what situation it might create if those people paid by companies based down south would subsequently not be paying an delta in income tax? Are we going to create hundreds of Google and Amazon like situations where creative accounting comes in and tax is avoided? I don't know...but just wondered as I am, like I expect many here are too, paid from a company based outside Scotland.

[pete]

Perhaps best let the orderlies back up mate

Can't.

Bed wedged against door.

Might have accidentally injured one of them as my reserve of self restraint broke down and I grabbed the keyboard.

(I take it this ad-hom is a tacit acknowledgement that I'm right?)

[Shug]

Perhaps best let the orderlies back up mate

Can't.

Bed wedged against door.

Might have accidentally injured one of them as my reserve of self restraint broke down and I grabbed the keyboard.

(I take it this ad-hom is a tacit acknowledgement that I'm right?)

Nope. Just that I realise that you're a frothing-at-the-mouth devotee to his cause. If I had the time. Would happily discuss it with you over a beer, but not ranting to and fro on a forum.

[Mikie711]

Just to throw a hypothetical question in as it something I was wondering. Given that to achieve some of the goals stated, and however pie in the sky some of them maybe I do appreciate that they have appeal to some demographics, taxes will likely rise. While many taxes can be geographic, i believe income tax is harder to manage this way. I wonder what situation it might create if those people paid by companies based down south would subsequently not be paying an delta in income tax? Are we going to create hundreds of Google and Amazon like situations where creative accounting comes in and tax is avoided? I don't know...but just wondered as I am, like I expect many here are too, paid from a company based outside Scotland.

Interesting point on working for companies outside of Scotland. That said, it is actually easier to calculate your own tax than you would think so perhaps a move to the US system might be an answer whereby everybody is responsible for there own tax liability.
I can already see many of you recoiling in horror at the thought, and initially I felt the same way when I moved to a dollar contract in my work. All of a sudden I had to manage not only having to work out my own tax but also being paid in a foreign currency, managing a fluctuating exchange rate as well as figuring out foreign tax paid in my name. However it is far simpler than most accountants would have you believe and certainly gives you greater focus on what your tax pounds are used for.
More likely is what happens now, if you are paid in pounds by a foreign company they pay tax on your behalf through PAYE and submit a P60 at year end.
If as they claim they will simplify the tax system to make recovering tax easier and to reduce loop holes allowing for tax avoidance then I suspect things will become easier given that they will be managing the taxes for a considerably smaller population.

I love your comment "however pie in the sky some of them maybe" care to elaborate?

[robin]

A split would certainly create multinationals out of UK only businesses at present; these would have to deal with employing staff in two countries and managing taxation, etc. Staff that didn't like being in one tax regime or the other might have to consider relocating to the other country.

Corporation tax might have the same impact on businesses that can relocate some or all of their revenue from one country to another; it is very likely that Scotland would have lower corporation tax and probably higher income tax; so the companies would come, would keep more of their profits and their staff would be left paying more tax (or maybe the company pays them more to compensate).

I don't think corporation tax and income tax is likely to be a big deal in the first instance - and most people don't decide where to live or work based on taxation alone, so unlikely to create an immediate exodus of either staff or companies.

Pete hits the nail on the head as usual (although I disagree with him in the end). It is illogical to compare the published plans for independence (in so far as you can call them "plans") with the status quo - they are not comparable - the status quo is just trusted because it's been "kind of OK" so far, and we've survived the disasters that have hit along the way - but there is nothing to say that a different bunch of turnips would have failed to navigate their way through the disasters.

Cheers,
Robin

[Lazydonkey]

In work if i want something to happen i have to write a business case of sorts.

It states the pros, cons and the (most importantly) sets out the costs of making it happen.

What i've not seen (although i could have missed) is the calculations of how much it would cost to replicate the passport office, dvla, inland revenue etc etc etc.

Given that no-one ever doubts that that things like centralising the police saves money overall (granted it could have other consequences) then the opposite must surely be true.....having two DVLAs must be more expensive than one......so where are those costs? Are they baked in ?

[campbell]

I'm not entirely sure that centralising the Police has saved any money. Might be early days yet. Depends over what term they have forecast their NPV calcs etc.

All the numbers for running a country are so huge and thus open to massage that I'm not sure I would believe any of them.

Pete might need to send me one of his orderlies shortly, I can feel a bit of an episode coming on

[David]

In work if i want something to happen i have to write a business case of sorts.

It states the pros, cons and the (most importantly) sets out the costs of making it happen.

What i've not seen (although i could have missed) is the calculations of how much it would cost to replicate the passport office, dvla, inland revenue etc etc etc.

Given that no-one ever doubts that that things like centralising the police saves money overall (granted it could have other consequences) then the opposite must surely be true.....having two DVLAs must be more expensive than one......so where are those costs? Are they baked in ?

It's not only the duplication of cost, it's the cost per head of population. Miles of road per car are greater, miles of power lines/gas pipes/water pipes etc etc are all greater per head but much of the cost (at least in part) is shared over a larger population. The 'yes campaign' would probably argue that we'll negotiate to share the cost with existing bodies (like the BBC in my own case) but why should they if they no longer share the benefits - be that tax, or nothing more than sense of being united as one.

[Mikie711]

We already pay for all of those under the public services budget, a portion of which is devolved £1.5bn of the total £2.5bn spend. There already regional DVLA offices, some of which are about to close as Westminster trims back on civil servants. So unlikely to have much impact on the greater scheme of things. Tax and Passport offices already exist so no change there.
Much of the cost projections are contained in the white paper. Now, obviously they will be on the optimistic side as this document is here to promote the idea, but then there is little argument about whether independence is affordable even Cameron acknowledged it's financial feasibility.

edited: to correct the figures for public and common services.

[tut]

To clear up one of my bête noire's, I do not believe that you can hate someone if you have not met them.

Dislike is probably not strong enough for some people, kill them is very often appropriate, but hate is a personal thing and I think has to be face to face or else it is just third party.

tut

[Mikie711]

Just out of interest can someone explain what "social Protection" covers. I get that it will cover things like social security, tax credits and the like but what else does this encompass?

[Lazydonkey]

We already pay for all of those under the public services budget, a portion of which is devolved £1.5bn of the total £2.5bn spend. There already regional DVLA offices, some of which are about to close as Westminster trims back on civil servants. So unlikely to have much impact on the greater scheme of things. Tax and Passport offices already exist so no change there.

There's a HUGE change there. The office and people is the least of it. We need to set up completely new databases and processes. At the moment all of these systems reside outside of Scotland and we'd need to create new versions. At the moment all of the local offices access England (well actually Wales) based systems and that would all need to change.

EDIT : The number of these types of projects which didn't cost billions can be counted on one hand.

[BiggestNizzy]

I am in no way as eloquent with my arguments as pete. But I have a few points the white paper is at best a manifesto written by the SNP the please stay side of the argument has written no such white paper, maybe because they can get away with not bothering and happily sit at the side scaremongering about how everyone's taxes will go up and how if there was another financial crisis Mother England wouldn't be forced into bailing out the banks (or RBS) because after all we made our bed we better lie in it. Just look they didn't bail out the Irish did they ?

Money to say we wouldn't get any say with the bank of England is insane we own a chunk of it like every public owned asset in the UK wither that be a property of institution. IF wales where to become independent would they get to keep the DVLA ?
Europe, ignore Mariano Rajoy nobody knows the EU is a big club they like having members everything will be negotiated and it will be down to how good or bad Salmond does his job.
Worth noting that Labour will really struggle to get into power at Westminster should it happen they will loose 40+ seats.
We won't have to pay for HS2