VAG emmisionsgate what now?

[Stevoraith]

Ours is a CR

Sorry Campbell, I thought all pre-facelift ones were PDs- I stand corrected!

Anyway, stick your chassis number in here;
http://skoda-recallactions.skoda-auto.com/en-GB

Storm in a tea cup.

As I read it the software changes only kicked in during the Government tests and reverted to normal on the road, so no change to the owner, who actually benefits from lower tax emissions.

tut

The way I've read it is the software updates will permanently change the car settings to the state previously only reserved for government testing so owners will notice a difference as they will never have driven the car in this state before.

That's the opposite of how I read it- I understood that they would simply remove the cheat mode altogether.

In reality it's probably not as simple as either of those solutions, in fact it seems that on the 1.6 engines they will be replacing injectors as well as doing a remap.

I'm inclined to agree with Tut- my car has performed as I expected it to in terms of performance and economy and I've benefitted from lower road tax then I perhaps should have so I'm not upset by the whole thing.

[tut]

I am not a diesel VAG owner, and I am probably wrong woody, but I thought that the Chairman made a statement that the software was engineered for the Lab testing which is not done on every car, so would not affect the majority.

If not then every affected car is running on an unsuitable Map.

tut

[Stevoraith]

Tut, I think every (affected) car has the unsuitable map, it's just that it runs on a normal map until such times as it thinks it is being dyno tested (steering angle is monitored amongst other things) and then it flips to the cheat mode.

There's actually a video on YouTube which tests a 140 TDI in the states. They run it on a four-wheel rolling road to trick it into thinking its on the road and then change the road to two-wheel so it thinks it's being tested.

Both runs gave peak power more or less the same (138bhp and 136bhp iirc) but below the peak, power was down anywhere between 5 and 15bhp across the Rev range when it was running in cheat mode.

[campbell]

Steve, no need for apology...I was as surprised as you to learn our Poverty Spec workhorse was fitted with the later engine!

It really is a peach. As you know. For a diesel at any rate.

When I get 5 mins I'll punch the chassis #, but TBH we have no complaints either and I don't want anyone tinkering with it now, frankly. After the Evora, it's the best car we've ever owned.

[chrisdb]

We got a letter the other day for our 2011 Passat estate which is underpowered enough as it is.

As I understand it, the map to cheat the emissions test must impact performance in some way, so if the 'fix' then forces the car to use this map all the time to make the car properly satisfy the government emissions levels it is rated for then I don't want the 'fix'. If the 'fix' is going to remove the 'cheat mode' but leave a car producing more gasses than it's rated for, would this then leave us open to higher VED?

Either way, not sure we'll bother taking it back in. We bought it last year from a dealer so have no direct 'mis-selling' issue with VW?

[pshanks76]

Storm in a tea cup.

As I read it the software changes only kicked in during the Government tests and reverted to normal on the road, so no change to the owner, who actually benefits from lower tax emissions.

tut

The way I've read it is the software updates will permanently change the car settings to the state previously only reserved for government testing

Have VAG actually stated this? If not then how would you know?

In an article on the Telegraph site it states "“While we welcome the news that repairs will be undertaken to upgrade the affected cars to comply with EU nitrogen dioxide emission standards, such repairs may result in reduced fuel efficiency and increased CO2 emissions which in turn may impact upon the vehicle excise duty payable and other associated costs."

I haven't heard it straight from the VW mouth but it does seem to imply that they will be remapping to meet NO2 standards.

Article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... tware.html

[rawsco]

My understanding of NOx is that it's in direct competition with fuel efficiency... Eg good fuel efficiency needs high temperature and peak cylinder pressure which results in more NOx being produced. So I guess the cars will be mapped to run richer and with less boost and this less economy.

[Dark]

Are these cars all fitted with the diesel exhaust fluid / AdBlue system? It injects urea into the exhaust which reacts with the NOx in the catalyst to form water & nitrogen ie: harmless.

I'd read that most cars fitted with the system only have a small AdBlue tank and that in theory it would need to be refilled on a semi-regular basis (1ltr urea for every 50ltr of diesel).

However almost nobody knows about it and you never see it for sale (except in bulk for lorries & coaches). The manufacturers have always claimed that they only need to refill during servicing which makes sense if the system is normally switched off unless the car senses it's being emission tested! Just a thought anyway...........

[Stevoraith]

Nope, no AdBlue on the EA189 engine.

IIRC it's only the larger Diesel engines in some Audis and possibly the Touareg that has it.

[Lazydonkey]

In an article on the Telegraph site it states "“While we welcome the news that repairs will be undertaken to upgrade the affected cars to comply with EU nitrogen dioxide emission standards, such repairs may result in reduced fuel efficiency and increased CO2 emissions which in turn may impact upon the vehicle excise duty payable and other associated costs."

I haven't heard it straight from the VW mouth but it does seem to imply that they will be remapping to meet NO2 standards.

Article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... tware.html

That quote is from a lawyer who wants to represent people affected by the "crisis"

I think it's fair to say no one knows what the remap will do yet.

Sent from a mobile device

[pshanks76]

That's fair enough but it's also then fair to say that we can't rule out that it may affect performance and/or economy.

[pshanks76]

From Volkswagen Group of America's CEO, Michael Horn;

"To my current understanding, in achieving the emissions standard the Monroney label miles per gallon will be achieved [but] there might be a slight impact on the performance,"

On possibility of affecting performance;
"we will look into compensating our customers, and if it would be significant differences this will be part of the discussion"

[fd]

That's fair enough but it's also then fair to say that we can't rule out that it may affect performance and/or economy.

Thankfully all the spin doesn't change the way engines work . . . the good old laws of thermodynamics aren't subject to marketing sh*t.

To reduce NOx without exhaust treatment (urea) you have to change how the fuel is burned. You want to burn it a little colder and therefore less efficiently. So you might reduce boost a little, change the injector timing/firing pattern a little, etc. All of these things make the engine a little less efficient so power reduces a little, torque reduces a little and fuel consumption increases a little. Factor into that also that the DPF/cat will be designed to work with the old map and therefore may have a reduced life . . . and it's probably not something I would choose to have done to my car unless legally obliged to.

Whether these changes will be noticeable is one thing, however you cannot avoid the side effects.

VAG will have done vast amounts of testing of these cars, now they are changing them without the time to do the required years worth of testing to know what the implications of these changes will be long term.

I have a kitten killer Audi 2.0tdi, I won't be getting it changed unless I cannot use it on the road otherwise. So long as it passes an MOT it'll stay exactly as it is today.

The maps on these cars detect the test cycle and switch on all the toys to reduce emissions, under these circumstances the car is not as efficient. As soon as you drive it on the road the map is changed to enhanced performance and increased emissions . . . just in case anybody thought it was the other way around (Tut).

[Lazydonkey]

Has anyone actually said these cars have to be remapped in order to ensure they hit the emissions they should have hit all along when under normal conditons? Ie ensure normal mode gives the same results as cheat mode.

I know the UK government has said the original tax position will remain so I can't see why they would force a remap. Eu might i guess but i've not heard anything to say it will be forced.

If they aren't forced to hit those numbers then they could just remove cheat mode and the car will remain as before.... Unless it's under test conditions. Which nobody cares about!

Sent from a mobile device

[Stevoraith]

That's what I naïvely thought would happen Martin but it's sounding less like that will be the case....

Nobody really knows yet though as the technical solution has not yet been finalised apparently.
Guess we'll have to wait and see but if I can at all avoid it I won't be volunteering to change to a map which gives me worse performance or higher fuel consumption, never mind both at the same time.