One less 458 in the world

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mrbennybennett
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by mrbennybennett » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:05 pm

shooomer wrote:
mrbennybennett wrote: The car is owned by a guy called Bindi Landa - does own a lot of the tat shops on the Royal Mile but not related to the Gold Brothers - he is actually their main rival.

I saw it parked up outside Boyd Properties office on Queensferry Road at about half 11 yesterday - so he didnt make it too far if he twatted it outsdie Stew Mell :roll:

He has not had much luck of late - about 6 masked men broke into his house in Blackhall a couple of months ago and gave him a right kicking :shock:
Banned from Uncle Tommy's too :lol:
That is worse than smashing up your new Fezza - poor guy :lol:
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Dave
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by Dave » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:04 pm

dirkpitt wrote:
ikarl wrote:
Dominic wrote: Say it was doing 40 MPH, the Fezza was doing 30 MPH, and the hit head on; that would be a 70 MPH impact
not actually correct <pedantic-faction/>
oh a physics lesson :mrgreen: :thumbsup
Myth busters did something like this, comparing a car hitting a wall and two cars hitting head on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8E5dUnL ... re=related

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ikarl
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by ikarl » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:18 pm

Consider two scenarios:
1. Two identical vehicles (same size and mass) travel at the same speed, let's say 50 km/h, in opposite directions, and they collide with each other head-on.
2. One of those vehicles hits a rock wall (which doesn't break nor budge in any significant way) head-on at 50 km/h.

From the point of view of one of the vehicles, which collision is more severe?
Most people would instantly answer that the first collision is more severe because the effective collision speed is 100 km/h, and thus the collision has twice as much force than the second collision, which happens only at 50 km/h.

This answer is wrong, wrong, and utterly wrong. Many people just don't get this one, not even people who should know better. I can't even count how many times I have heard people getting this one wrong.

The most prominent and severe case which I have seen was Jamie Hyneman from the show MythBusters getting this exact problem wrong in their "demolition derby special" episode, where he stated that two trucks travelling at 50 mph each and colliding head-on were subject to a collision force equivalent to hitting a rock wall at 100 mph. Maybe he is not a physicist, but nevertheless he of all people should know this.
The correct answer is: The two collisions are completely equivalent. From the point of view of one of the vehicles it makes absolutely no difference whether it hits a rock wall at 50 km/h or another identical vehicle which was travelling at the same speed in the opposite direction. The amount of force applied to the vehicle is the same in both situations.

(Ok, in reality there will be some differences because the consistency of a rock wall is very different from a consistency of a vehicle, but this only means that hitting the rock wall will be more severe than hitting the other car, although probably not by a lot.)

I know that no matter how much this is explained, some people just don't get it. They just can't get rid the misconception that the two-vehicle collision must have double the force. There are a few things which might make it easier to accept:
When the vehicle hits the rock wall at 50 km/h, the rock wall causes a force large enough to stop the vehicle right there. In other words, the vehicle hits the rock wall with a momentum equivalent to its speed times its mass. Conversely, by Newton's law, at the moment of the collision the rock wall causes an equal force to the vehicle in the opposite direction, causing it to stop. That is, the rock wall causes a force equivalent to the 50 km/h times the mass of the vehicle.

The misconception in the two-vehicle scenario is basically that this applied force is double that, ie. the equivalent to 100 km/h times the mass of the vehicle.

However, think about where this force is coming from in the two-vehicle scenario: It's coming from the second vehicle. But the second vehicle is also travelling at 50 km/h and has the same mass.

So we have two forces: Vehicle 1 applies the equivalent of 50 km/h times its mass to vehicle 2, and vehicle 2 applies an equal force to vehicle 1. This causes both vehicles to stop right there.

Where would the additional 50 km/h times the mass of the vehicle come from? Vehicle 1 cannot apply that force to itself. It's applying it to vehicle 2. So where is it coming from?

The answer is that it's not coming from anywhere because the force applied to vehicle 1 is not 100 km/h times the mass, but only 50 km/h times the mass. The same as with the rock wall.

Think also about this: If you applied a force equivalent to 100 km/h times the mass in the opposite direction of vehicle 1, that would actually make vehicle 1 change direction and go backwards at 50 km/h after the collision. Conversely it would also make vehicle 2 do the same. That doesn't happen.
Think about it like this: If vehicle 1 couldn't "see" what it hits, how can it tell if it hit a rock wall or vehicle 2? The "point of impact" remains stationary in the two-vehicle case, in the exact same way as in the one-vehicle-and-rock-wall case. From the point of view of vehicle 1, there's no difference.
Now, if vehicle 2 was stationary and vehicle 1 hit it at 50 km/h, that would make a big difference compared to the rock wall. That's because now vehicle 2, having the same mass as vehicle 1 (rather than "infinite" mass, as the rock wall), is applying much less force to vehicle 1.

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campbell
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by campbell » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:26 pm

Robin is having a few days off and will be back with us soon. Meantime, I give you...Karl ;-)

Bravo. Enjoyed that!
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alicrozier
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by alicrozier » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:34 pm

Ah, but head on to a Land Rover doing 40 not the same as hitting rock wall at 30...discuss... ;)

(Land Rovers weigh a bit more than Fezza's)
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by Ferg » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:54 pm

Dom wrote:Say it was doing 40 MPH, the Fezza was doing 30 MPH, and the hit head on; that would be a 70 MPH impact,
Interestingly it's all about interpretation. Dom's statement is correct! If one car is doing 30mph and one 40mph then it is indeed a 70mph impact. He didn't state that it was the equivalent of a 70mph impact into concrete which was subsequently extrpolated.
:thumbsup
I thank you. :blackeye (I did enjoy the physics lesson though :wink: )

I've always said than each school should have a speed camera outside it. But aswell as that, parents double parking should get tickets.

And to finish, a speed of 90mph as stated would be impossible at that time of day at that location, even in a 458. Speeding there at that time of day is very reckless. The road was dry judging by the pics so they should be able to get some evidence to show excctly what happened. In fact, don't modern fezza's have a black box?

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by simon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:22 pm

Ferg wrote:Interestingly it's all about interpretation. Dom's statement is correct! If one car is doing 30mph and one 40mph then it is indeed a 70mph impact. He didn't state that it was the equivalent of a 70mph impact into concrete which was subsequently extrpolated.
I disagree, you can't have a 70mph impact without having something travelling at 70mph in the first place. 2 cars travelling at 30mph crashing into each other does not make a 60mph impact, it's just 2 30mph impacts occurring at the same time but with more energy output than a single 30mph crash.

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by Ferg » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:33 pm

Whats the relative speed of one car to the other? I would of thought was possible then to say that the impact between the cars had an impact speed of 70mph. I was just wanting to point out (in fun, not trying to take things to seriously) that you can read things in all sort of ways. :oops: :D

EDIT: and I agree with the Physics BTW :thumbsup

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by The_Rossatron » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:57 pm

What If 10 cars crash into each other at 10mph at the same time? :)
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Ferg
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by Ferg » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:59 pm

The_Rossatron wrote:What If 10 cars crash into each other at 10mph at the same time? :)
It's pensioner day at B&Q. :lol:

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by paulW » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:01 pm

simon wrote:
Ferg wrote:Interestingly it's all about interpretation. Dom's statement is correct! If one car is doing 30mph and one 40mph then it is indeed a 70mph impact. He didn't state that it was the equivalent of a 70mph impact into concrete which was subsequently extrpolated.
I disagree, you can't have a 70mph impact without having something travelling at 70mph in the first place. 2 cars travelling at 30mph crashing into each other does not make a 60mph impact, it's just 2 30mph impacts occurring at the same time but with more energy output than a single 30mph crash.
I am parked stationary and get hit head on by a car travelling at 30 mph....ok it's a 30 mph impact and I get pushed back several car lengths.
I am now travelling at 30 mph and get hit head on by a car travelling at 30 mph...still a 30 mph impact theoretically, but a little more messy?

Perhaps almost the equivalent of hitting that parked car at 60mph?

one 30 mph collsion = 1 unit of carnage, 30mph + 30mph = 2 units of carnage, can use whatever units of measurement you like.

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ikarl
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by ikarl » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:13 pm

every action has an equal and opposite reaction Paul - it depends how easy it is to push back the stationary car :thumbsup


this part is important -

"Think also about this: If you applied a force equivalent to 100 km/h times the mass in the opposite direction of vehicle 1, that would actually make vehicle 1 change direction and go backwards at 50 km/h after the collision. Conversely it would also make vehicle 2 do the same. That doesn't happen.
Think about it like this: If vehicle 1 couldn't "see" what it hits, how can it tell if it hit a rock wall or vehicle 2? The "point of impact" remains stationary in the two-vehicle case, in the exact same way as in the one-vehicle-and-rock-wall case. From the point of view of vehicle 1, there's no difference.
Now, if vehicle 2 was stationary and vehicle 1 hit it at 50 km/h, that would make a big difference compared to the rock wall. That's because now vehicle 2, having the same mass as vehicle 1 (rather than "infinite" mass, as the rock wall), is applying much less force to vehicle 1."
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paulW
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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by paulW » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:16 pm

simon wrote:it's just 2 30mph impacts occurring at the same time but with more energy output than a single 30mph crash.
Isn't that the whole point though? the energy involved?

more energy in = a bigger mess?

kind of like the difference between hitting a motorcyclist head on and an articulated lorry at the same speeds?

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by paulW » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:43 pm

Yup, I get the equal and opposite reaction.

For a 30 mph car to achieve a a 0 mph speed after a collision (ie the same as the rock) you need another equal weight car to hit it at 30 mph head on.

So hitting a immovable rock at 30 mph, is the equivalent of two cars both travelling at 30 mph, head on.

However, hitting an equal weight stationary car at 0 mph isn't, neither is hitting an oncoming car at 10,20, or even 25 mph.

Less energy = less mess?

Or am i still not getting this?

(edited as i meant a stationary car at 0 mph, not 30 mph. car travelling at 30mph while stationary, is a whole different subject.)

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Re: One less 458 in the world

Post by Dark » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:47 pm

Appears the Ferrari lost it at the roundabout at the junction of Queensferry Road & Queensferry Terrace. Spun several times and hit a Land Rover (might be a Range Rover) coming in the opposite direction.

The Land Rover was being driven by a parent from school who's suffered multiple fractures to both legs. His primary 3 child who was in the car was taken to Sick Kids as a precaution but fortunately was unhurt.

Lots of witness apparently, several of the school coach drivers saw the accident first hand. From the damage to the Ferrari and the injuries to the Land Rover driver it must have been a big impact! :(
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