Has anybody changed their vote about independence??

[DDtB]

Good thing we have a middle aged man to clarify what's humiliating and what's not from a female perspective ... who may have been abused/raped.

It's almost like some people are so entrenched in their own version of the truth that no other opinions or facts will be considered. Ironic really when that's what they're complaining about in others.

Again this thread continues to bring out the worst in people, not the best. imho.

[campbell]

WTF are you saying Dave? Sorry. Lost here!

[pete]

Can any of the anti-indie types imagine a scenario where they would change their minds?

I struggle to do that with Brexit, but I can easily imagine finding post Brexit that I was wrong. I struggle to vote Tory but it's not because I "hate" May. I've never met her, I literally have no feelings about her and don't really know what she stands for. I wasn't fond of Cameron because I found him incompetent (he lost a referendum that he called for!).
If the Tories pledged to increase NHS spending significantly (as a proportion of GDP) instead of reducing it and stopped the nonsense of populous policies with no basis in fact (grammar schools anyone?) I could be convinced. I'd be personally better off under the Tories.

From reading this there seems to be a ot of personal feelings, so go on what would it take you to change your mind?

[campbell]

Real facts and plans and commitments and answers to questions like currency, how we trade with old partners, how we fund a huge public sector ourselves, how we get our voice heard on a huge and still growing global stage.

How we get back into Europe. Guaranteed.

And someone in charge other than Sturgeon. Swinney, I confess, I almost rate.

And evidence that the SNP can GOVERN rather simply beat a drum of an ideology of "freedom", distracting half the electorate from the fact they are not achieving much.

And an end to the hypocrisy about no one listening when they are not listening either.

I'll stop there.

[thinfourth]

Good thing we have a middle aged man to clarify what's humiliating and what's not from a female perspective ... who may have been abused/raped.

It's almost like some people are so entrenched in their own version of the truth that no other opinions or facts will be considered. Ironic really when that's what they're complaining about in others.

Again this thread continues to bring out the worst in people, not the best. imho.

As a white middle aged male lets have a wee look at this rape clause and see if i can understand the humiliation.

If you have a short attention span the answer is NOPE


But lets go for it anyway.

It appears that your principle objection is the humiliating process that women who have suffered rape are put through.

As a heartless barsteward i don't think asking them to fill in their name and address is too awful.

But i'm an evil tory voter so lets end the debate here

Not ending it here I am going to carry on. The SNP would love me to end it here as the label of "TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" has been firmly attached to me.


Why are victims of rape being asked to fill in this form?

SNP answer = Doesn't matter you are wearing the ""TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" label and your a MAN you'll never under stand you heartless scumbag. Down with england, down with the tories!!!!

Real Answer = Child tax credits are now limited to the first two births so a 3rd birth would not longer attract higher benefits. There is exceptions put in place for exceptional circumstances such as adoption, multiple births and RAPE.


Now as a white middle aged tax paying male i think this is sensible. I don't think that MY taxes should be used to support un-limited children but i realise that there will be circumstances where an exception must be made.

I also realise that if there is no standard of evidence for these exemptions then anyone and everyone could apply for them. So while it is not "nice"to ask a rape victim to fill in their name and address i realise it is necessary. I also realise that over the whole of the UK using rape figures and the amount of resulting pregnancies that the numbers that will have to fill out this form are absolutely tiny



Now i realise that there is a very good socialist argument that the state should take money from rich people and give it to the poor. I also realise that it is disgusting to many that the tory government have decided to limit benefits aimed at helping children of the poor.

However

In scotland the Scottish government has the powers to increase income tax. They also have the power to create new benefits. So Holyrood can quite easily stop this by increasing income tax and creating a new benefit in scotland for the 3rd child and up.


Now where is the left wing socialist SNP scottish government on this issue?

They are over in the corner waving the "TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" flag


Where are you on this subject Dave? Are you still standing looking at the "TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" flag?

I hope not.

I hope you are asking why are the SNP not calling for higher income tax.
I hope you are asking why haven't the SNP used their benefit creating powers to give tax credits to those that are left out of the Tory policy.



If you are still looking at the "TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" flag then the SNP are happy. As "TORY RAPE CLAUSE SUPPORTER" is short and snappy and can even have its own twitter hashtag. It fits on a flag, even thick people can shout it. Its great no thought is required. perfect for the twitter generation.

If people actually start to ask real questions on this issue then the SNP are scuppered. As they can end it tomorrow!

[thinfourth]

Can any of the anti-indie types imagine a scenario where they would change their minds?

WELL

A first step might be to stop labelling me as a "type" and realise i am a real person who wants the best for Scotland

From reading this there seems to be a lot of personal feelings, so go on what would it take you to change your mind?

Now the SNP are keen to label me as a unionist. Someone who doffs his cap to the queen and just absolutely LOVEs the union flag and will always vote to support that flag and thinks that anything westminster does is just spiffing.

I'm not one of those people. I don't really care about flags to be honest. I will admit i dislike this one



As it is normally associated with a low IQ football loving halfwit

I used to like this one



not so keen now as it tends to be associated with a low IQ football loving halfwit wearing a SNP badge.


But i digress

Can i imagine a world where i would vote for independent scotland?

Don't have to.

It was about 4 years ago just before a SNP supporter called me an english cnut for daring to question how an independent scotland would handle england not rolling over and giving them everything they wanted.


Thats a shocker isn't it

So how can the Sturgeon win back my support

1 = Reign in your supporters. Abusing anyone who questions you publicly will never win their vote in the privacy of the voting booth in a secret ballot.

2 = Shut up about brexit. We had a referendum. YOU LOST 1/3rd of your members voted leave. It is a done deal, it is outside of your scope of responsibility.

3 = Shut up about independence. We had a once in a generation vote. YOU LOST. We spoke shut the fcuk up and listen

4 = Stop jetting around the world. Foreign policy is outside of your scope of responsibility. I'd respect you far more if you never even left scotland.

5 = When asked about the scottish NHS don't answer the question about saying look at england. The english NHS outside of your scope of responsibility. The Scottish one has been the Scottish governments responsibility for 20 years. The correct response to when asked a question about the scottish NHS is to ANSWER the question!

6 = When asked about the scottish education system don't answer the question about saying look at england. The english education system outside of your scope of responsibility. The Scottish one has been the Scottish governments responsibility for 20 years. The correct response to when asked a question about the scottish education system is to ANSWER the question!

7 = When asked about the scottish police force don'........................

8 = You asked for powers. START FECKING USING THEM!!!!!!!!! don't sit moaning asking for more.

9 = When westminster does something you dislike use the powers you have to overcome the issues created. Don't just bang on about independence. See point 3

10 = Drop the anti-tory obsession, 25% of scotland voters are Tory. To label 25% of YOUR OWN PEOPLE as monsters really doesn't help

11 = Reign in your supporters. Abusing anyone who questions you publicly will never win their vote in the privacy of the voting booth in a secret ballot.


All the SNP really need to do to win my support is to shut up about the tory party, the EU and independence.

Show they can run a competent and honest government.

Do that for a decade and then i will listen to them when they talk about an independent Scotland.

And when they do talk about an independent scotland

Answer questions honestly.

Be honest with your supporters!

As if they had won in 2014 it would not be people driving a lotus Elise who would be suffering the most. It would be the people in a dead end estate in glasgow who would be wandering why their benefits had stopped when Alex had promised them £300,000 from scotlands trillions worth of oil. The same people who voted YES.

[c8rkh]

Dave, to answer your question i will just simply quote this from Thinfourth:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All the SNP really need to do to win my support is to shut up about the tory party, the EU and independence.

Show they can run a competent and honest government.

Do that for a decade and then i will listen to them when they talk about an independent Scotland.

And when they do talk about an independent scotland

Answer questions honestly.

Be honest with your supporters!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
and this from Campbell.

Real facts and plans and commitments and answers to questions like currency, how we trade with old partners, how we fund a huge public sector ourselves, how we get our voice heard on a huge and still growing global stage.

How we get back into Europe. Guaranteed.

And someone in charge other than Sturgeon. Swinney, I confess, I almost rate.

And evidence that the SNP can GOVERN rather simply beat a drum of an ideology of "freedom", distracting half the electorate from the fact they are not achieving much.

And an end to the hypocrisy about no one listening when they are not listening either.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There is a theme throughout both of the posts from Thinfourth and Campbell in that the SNP need to be honest; stop the constant and incessant whinging and whining (a big boy did it and ran away syndrome!); answer the bloody question; prove you can govern and actually use the powers you have. Let's see how they get on shall we.

[campbell]

I think it was Pete's question but never to worry, it's getting pretty busy here

[Corranga]

I agree with the above.

I'd happily vote for Scottish Independence if I genuinely believed it was in the interests of me, my family, and the future of my country.
For me, as has been reflected by others, that would involve a complete restructuring and rethinking of the main operations of the SNP.
I'd like them to realise that it is a BIG decision for most of us. It's not something to take lightly, and deflecting / spinning questions won't work.
They should show by example and actually govern. They should stop using every little thing to winge about independence, especially as it's not been an election year until very recently.

I suspect the reality is that if they were to govern properly, that Scotland would become a better place. Many of the points where Scotland as a democracy disagrees with the rest of the UK can be solved here and now, but that's bad for business when you want to promote oppression from English Tory votes - demonstrating that devolution actually works is not in the SNPs best interests.

In brief, they need to act as a government, not as a political party standing for election. They need to listen to and represent the electorate, not their party goals.

On the TV debates, I completely agree that they are set up with a format that promotes more extreme politics and entertainment, but imo this is the problem. Fix the format, try something new. Highly publicised politics is a good thing.
So, the problem here is that May has said no. Not "no, unless you change x, y and z" just no. She knows she is weak at off the cuff public speaking. She knows she can avoid it by refusing. I personally think that thinking fast and on your feet is a good quality in a Prime Minister. I also think we have a right to know more about her character and way of thinking (with respect to her position) and not her party approved 10th draft from professional speech writing staff.
It is after all, her name we are potentially indicating our selection next to, not theirs. I want to know how she will react to things, especially when she is leader of a party which has diverse views on some of the main points - as head, it's her decision at some point..

[renmure]

Dave, to answer your question i will just simply quote this from Thinfourth:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All the SNP really need to do to win my support is to shut up about the tory party, the EU and independence.

Show they can run a competent and honest government.

Do that for a decade and then i will listen to them when they talk about an independent Scotland.

And when they do talk about an independent scotland

Answer questions honestly.

Be honest with your supporters!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I hate doing the +1 thing, but that sums things up fairly well for me so.... +1

I have friends who are supporters of Scottish independence who are open about the fact that they wouldn't vote for the SNP based on any real or imagined dream that they are in any way a competent party of government, but they are the only party offering them what they want. The ultimate tactical voting in a way. I get that argument.

I am a conservative with a big c and a small C. I don't really like change too much, especially BIG change where the intellectual arguments put forward for and against are so polar that they become meaningless. If the SNP competently governed the country and used their levers of power to show they could effectively run an economy, better manage the unmanageable behemoth that is the NHS, make educashon better and promote and advocate policies that help those who need help (most likely at the expense of myself and most of the folk reading this) and actually make positive change for the country and across the country then yeah, I might need to have a rethink.

If I am to go from being more Unionist that Nationalist I need to be taken along that journey and see for myself the error of my ways and how things may be better rather than having some organised muppetry of dimwit politicians and their sloganised supporters seek to shout down any dissent or questioning.

I accept that the answers to some of the questions, perhaps many of the questions, is a simple "we don't know..... but we have made some provision for a, b, c... etc" and I would rather hear that that hear makey-up guff that would look silly in an Alice and Wonderland story that gets trotted out because it is simple and fits on a Meme for facebook.

The SNP announce their manifesto later today and it will be interesting for me to see whether they give the same story as at the last General Election where, "a vote for the SNP isn't a vote for independence" or if there is a different somatic to it all this time.

[pete]

On the TV debates, I completely agree that they are set up with a format that promotes more extreme politics and entertainment, but imo this is the problem. Fix the format, try something new. Highly publicised politics is a good thing.
So, the problem here is that May has said no. Not "no, unless you change x, y and z" just no. She knows she is weak at off the cuff public speaking. She knows she can avoid it by refusing. I personally think that thinking fast and on your feet is a good quality in a Prime Minister. I also think we have a right to know more about her character and way of thinking (with respect to her position) and not her party approved 10th draft from professional speech writing staff.
It is after all, her name we are potentially indicating our selection next to, not theirs. I want to know how she will react to things, especially when she is leader of a party which has diverse views on some of the main points - as head, it's her decision at some point..

That's well put, I like that.

[BigD]

On the TV debates, I completely agree that they are set up with a format that promotes more extreme politics and entertainment, but imo this is the problem. Fix the format, try something new. Highly publicised politics is a good thing.
So, the problem here is that May has said no. Not "no, unless you change x, y and z" just no. She knows she is weak at off the cuff public speaking. She knows she can avoid it by refusing. I personally think that thinking fast and on your feet is a good quality in a Prime Minister. I also think we have a right to know more about her character and way of thinking (with respect to her position) and not her party approved 10th draft from professional speech writing staff.
It is after all, her name we are potentially indicating our selection next to, not theirs. I want to know how she will react to things, especially when she is leader of a party which has diverse views on some of the main points - as head, it's her decision at some point..

That's well put, I like that.

I disagree, Donald Trump can think fast on his feet and I'm sure he can also make a quick decision, does that make him a good leader? No.

I'd far rather have a leader that makes well thought out and considered decisions having taken all the facts into account and all sides opinions.

[Jamie Satriani]

[/quote]I'd far rather have a leader that makes well thought out and considered decisions having taken all the facts into account and all sides opinions.[/quote]

Well that rules out the blinkered, aggressive and obsessional third rate Politician Nicola Sturgeon then, does it not?.

[BigD]

I'd far rather have a leader that makes well thought out and considered decisions having taken all the facts into account and all sides opinions.

Well that rules out the blinkered, aggressive and obsessional third rate Politician Nicola Sturgeon then, does it not?.

Very much so.

[thinfourth]

Well that rules out the blinkered, aggressive and obsessional third rate Politician Nicola Sturgeon then, does it not?.

Who has MPs in 56 out of 59 sears in scotland

If she manages to increase that vote share then i think i need to seriously consider my future up here