Learning heel'n'toe - suggestions?

[Tommy Twist]

Hi

I would like to learn to heel and toe - can anyone could offer practical suggestions for how to go about it? Safe methods/locations for practise, perhaps? (unfortunately, lengthy track time is not a realistic option).

Double-clutching with rev matching on downshifts is second nature to me now, so that bit isn't a problem, but getting a hang of the foot control/co-ordination required for doing this under braking (the heel'n'toe bit) isn't something that is coming naturally, and I'm scared to experiment too much during my routine drives, for fear of making a costly mistake...

Doesn't seem to help that, while my finger/hand control is possibly better than average, my foot co-ordination is relatively lousy... was always a better guitar player and typist than footballer! (which probably isn't saying much).

Car is a BMW E92 330i, with floor-hinged accelerator pedal, if that makes any difference.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm not a new driver, been at it for the best part of two decades, just (embarrassingly) getting around to learning the interesting stuff!

[gambler]

Just get out onto a quite road and practice. The more time you put into it, the better you will get. If you ever want to try left foot braking, definitely do that in a road where nothing else is around. Left foot is just used to shoving a clutch down and you can almost put yourself through the windscreen... I know I did

One tip I picked up from Walshy is to practice when watching TV etc. Put your right foot on top of your left and put the kind of pressure you will use when braking, then try the heel toe. Most people struggle to keep the same pressure when they move thier feet across to press the accelerator. You will be able to feel this pressure difference with your left foot. So, just stick at it until you can blip with constant pressure.

One thing though, doing the heel toe badly will make you slower around a track than a smooth down shift without.

[j2 lot]

Timing is everything, there are different techniques so you need to find what suits you. I am ok with foot over both pedals rocking side to side, can't get the hang of what is probably true H&T - dont think my ankle is flexible enough
Find a long stretch of quiet empty back road start slow and deliberate and build up.

Beaten too it but message is the same practice.

[Modena Scotland]

H&T is a basic technique all self respecting sports car drivers should learn to master, on road and track. It may take some time to master but well worth learning. It will make you a faster (smoother) driver and also better for the clutch/gearbox/engine.

It's a myth that one has to be braking hard to H&T properly. Learn the technique and one can H&T at any level of braking.

Best way to learn to H&T is to start rev matching at each shift down (which you say you are doing already). When you can rev match perfectly, start rev matching while braking by blipping the throttle. Make sure not to change the pressure you apply to the brake pedal while you blip. The universal method is to rotate your heel to blip the throttle while applying the brake pressure with the toe (or the ball). This method is much more pedal positions independent.

When you are used to H&T, you can down shift through each gear such as 4-3-2 or jump straight to the required gear e.g. 4-2. I know some people find it easier to go down the gears in a sequential order, I tend to jump straight down to required gear, especially on the road (as I require less engine braking and don't brake as hard).

When learning the technique, the common mistakes made are

1) too much/little blipping
2) change in the brake pedal pressure (as the pedal is pressed at max during the hard braking, a lot of people find it much easier to H&T during the maximum braking)

Until you are confident in H&T, make sure you practice it without any traffic behind you.

[PartTimer]

H&T is a basic technique all self respecting sports car drivers should learn to master, on road and track. It may take some time to master but well worth learning. It will make you a faster (smoother) driver and also better for the clutch/gearbox/engine.

I agree with you but I just can't get it. Have tried and tried but just can't get the blessed timing right. It got to the stage that I had a day at Abbeville last year with the whole place just for me, the car and an instructor. Despite a video system to record my feet, a full understanding of the theory and mechanics and a very patient instructor, I singularly failed to master the technique.

I do a lot of v-box recording with friends and coaches and I can see how much it affects my laps as I squirm into corners - despite my lack of talent, I brake late and hard. I just can't get the bloody heel and toe thing at all.

It might be an ankle thing as I broke my right ankle a decade ago and have restricted mobility but that feels like a bit of a diesel/roundabout excuse.

I feel like a New year resolution coming on. Is there any particular car/setup that makes it easier to learn?

[robin]

Serious question - what's the point in H&T in a rear wheel drive car (I know nothing about FWD/4WD)?

To answer my own question, the point is that it allows you to reduce engine braking during aggressive down shift - typically these will be occurring on track, braking from high speed straight down to hairpin or similar situations where you jump from, say, 4th to 2nd. As you brake harder and harder to compress the braking zone as far as is possible you reach the point where the down shift to 2nd adds so much extra (engine) braking to the rear wheels that they begin to lock (especially a problem in the wet, but the chirrup of hot rear tyres on down shift is a sure sign you are approaching the limit in the dry). We all know that a locked wheel has less grip than a rotating one, hence the rear starts to step out (it wants to overtake the front) on the way into the corner - a bit like pulling on the handbrake would.

It is my opinion that it is only when you are reaching this point that H&T has any sensible application. You can do all the blipping and whatever else you want on the road but it ought to be pointless - there is no way you should be so close to the limits of rear traction on the road so as to have to do this (just drive a lot slower).

So whilst Mass is right that you ought to be able the apply H&T at all sorts of brake pressures the reality is that it is mostly only relevant at near max pressure. Thus you ought to learn to do it under heavy braking and later you can play around with it at various pressures, for whatever that might be worth. One situation where it might make sense under less pressure is on a wet track; here you will have an extended braking zone but less grip to play with - you cannot use maximum brake pressure because that will lock the fronts, and you cannot just chuck it down a gear because at the limit that locks the rears; so you need to H&T under less pressure (or, as I do, just use a slightly longer braking zone in the wet - I don't compete so no odds to me).

Those that know me will know I am no ballet dancer and yet I can do it, so it is mostly just a matter of forcing your foot/ankle/knee/hip to do the unnatural rotation.

Relatively straight forward to practice in neutral and stationary (somewhere that won't annoy the neighbours!).

The key is that you need to lift your heel whilst pressing with the ball of the foot - that should be possible for anyone - the knee must bend to achieve this. Once your knee is moving up and down whilst you have brake pressure applied you can move to rotating the heel whilst raised. This will cause your right knee to swivel across to your left knee as the hip joint rotates. Collect throttle with the heel or ankle or shoe. Drop the knee to press throttle - keep pressure on ball of foot at all times. To return to no throttle you don't need to do the reverse - you can just swivel off the pedal.

I tend to mash the throttle during this procedure as mostly you should be changing down into high revs - if you hit 5-6K RPM reliably that tends to be close enough to eliminate the rear lock up problem - but of course if you're trying to do this on the way to Tesco, that isn't going to be right

Please don't be tempted to cover both pedals and rock the foot. No doubt somebody will tell me Fangio or Senna did it this way, but for mere mortals it is a recipe for disaster - it is easy to overwhelm the front grip this way and develop comedy understeer (rotate steering lock to lock and car ploughs on straight). If you don't happen to lock the fronts you will still end up extending your braking zone by accelerating and braking at the same time.

PartTimer: when you say you couldn't get the timing right, what do you mean? That you would press the throttle before disengaging clutch/still press throttle after engaging clutch? You might have to stop thinking about it and let it come naturally (perhaps by doing it badly until your brain learns the right timing by itself).

Cheers,
Robin

[Dominic]

It might be an ankle thing as I broke my right ankle a decade ago and have restricted mobility but that feels like a bit of a diesel/roundabout excuse.

I have broken my right ankle twice, (and left one once). On the second time for the right ankle I considered asking them to 'set' it a bit to the left, so it was better suited for H&T .. but of course did not. As it happens, it would appear to have ended up slightly twisted to the left, so that helps me. Plenty of physio got my mobility back.. suppose that's too late for you now? Anyway, the conventional technique is to rotate your foot (maybe 60 degrees) anti clockwise. Another technique (which is less popular) is to have the left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, and twist your foot to blip the throttle with the right hand side of the ball of your foot. Works for me with my size 11's.

[graeme]

Worth noting that if you have long legs there's a pretty good chance you won't be able to H&T at all. Before even starting the car, check you can actually do the pedal motion without some major knee surgery.

[jason]

Another technique (which is less popular) is to have the left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, and twist your foot to blip the throttle with the right hand side of the ball of your foot. Works for me with my size 11's.

This is the method I have always used, road and track, over the past 20+yrs in any familiar vehicle - on-road primarily for habit and comfort.

Some pedal boxes and/or leg room can render the lift your heel method (ie. literal application of the label) impossible for large feet, etc (eg. the Caterham's). An advantage (in my mind) is that the heel of the foot remains firmly placed on the floor, ie. a stable platform, which makes brake pressure modulation more precise (even at threshold). More reliant on a good brake:throttle pedal relationship though.

[Modena Scotland]

I feel the H&T is relevant on the road for the reasons below.

1) Longer clutch/gear box life (less mechanical strain)
2) Better car balance
3) Sound

On cars like the Diablo SV, H&T is very relevant if you drive it quite fast on the road in 3rd and 2nd gears. Even in dry, the rear can lock easily if you don't rev match properly. H&T might take time to learn but really no negatives for mastering it.

The other day, I test drove a 458 spider (a fantastic car!), while I was trail braking, I down shifted and the car twitched. With a perfect H&T, the car would not have done that!

[David]

Another technique (which is less popular) is to have the left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, and twist your foot to blip the throttle with the right hand side of the ball of your foot. Works for me with my size 11's.

This is the method I have always used, road and track, over the past 20+yrs in any familiar vehicle - on-road primarily for habit and comfort.

Some pedal boxes and/or leg room can render the lift your heel method (ie. literal application of the label) impossible for large feet, etc (eg. the Caterham's). An advantage (in my mind) is that the heel of the foot remains firmly placed on the floor, ie. a stable platform, which makes brake pressure modulation more precise (even at threshold). More reliant on a good brake:throttle pedal relationship though.

I used to think I rolled my foot until I stuck a camera down there and saw what was actually happening. Here's Dom in the R400 - he actually uses both methods . . .

Watch on YouTube

[robin]

I feel the H&T is relevant on the road for the reasons below.

1) Longer clutch/gear box life (less mechanical strain)
2) Better car balance
3) Sound

On cars like the Diablo SV, H&T is very relevant if you drive it quite fast on the road in 3rd and 2nd gears. Even in dry, the rear can lock easily if you don't rev match properly. H&T might take time to learn but really no negatives for mastering it.

The other day, I test drove a 458 spider (a fantastic car!), while I was trail braking, I down shifted and the car twitched. With a perfect H&T, the car would not have done that!

You are missing my point - you can achieve mechanical sympathy without heal and toe - you only need heal and toe if you're also trying to compress the braking distance which sounds wrong on the road - your braking distance is going to be governed by the need for a safety margin and the fact that you don't know what's around the corner, not by available rear grip.

Trailing throttle into a corner on the road, no problem (as long as you're not doing your advanced driver training ) - trailing brake with down shift is surely not required or sensible most of the time.

So I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying learn it on a track and if you don't plan on using it on track, don't bother using it on the road.

Cheers,
Robin

[ClarkyBoy]

I find its all about having your foot in a comfortable place,

Like Dom, i have had a few major injuries to my right ankle, and for some reason it seems to do the job better now!!

here is a vid of my at KH in the M3 (my feet) its not the best camera angle as it was a bit of a last minute desicion, but you can see my right heel in a fair bot of the vid - its also amazing waht goes on down there!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gxT0Jip ... sults_main

[Andy G]

Also worth noting though that some cars are horrific to H&T in.

I'd go for a drive EARLY one morning, and just work on it. Give yourself big braking distances incase it go tits up, and just work at it mile after mile.

Worth getting someone that can do it to try it on your car first though. In an Elise if you still have it though its a doddle

Take your time & dont rush it.

[mikeyb13]

Im also trying to master this. I ended up backwards at the hairpin trying to take it in 2nd in the Elise, locking up the rears the only 2 times I tried it. Knew heel/toe was the solution but I wimped out and started taking it in 3rd. Annoying as it was a piece of cake in 2nd in the Exige.

Like the suggestion of using the left foot under your right so you learn to keep consistant pressure on the brake as I always lift off slighty which sometimes results in the car shooting forward

I also have difficulty timing it, I usually blip the throttle too early, so by the time I lift the clutch the revs have dropped.