The Pope

[pete]

I don't think any good comes out of discussions of faith on public forums.

Mac

And as a regular churchgoer I find what you say, Pete, as downright insulting.

Abrahamic Gods includes Christianity, Judaism and Islam so I don't really know where you are coming from. I haven't read what the Pope said so can't comment on that.

I'm a Trade Union rep, and have been for several years.

Should I take personal offence when someone openly criticises the TU movement?
Should I have posted on the discussion thread about the BA strike last month claiming personal insult?
I think that might have been mildly ridiculous.

My politics are as confused as any religous debate and equally faith based. No-one really knows which economic theory is the best but I believe that one way is very slightly better than another. Thing is I try to be a true skeptic, prove to me another way is better then I'll change my opinions. They are just opinions after all, based on what I've learnt in this life up until now. Teach me something new and you might tip the balance the other way.

I presume that others are the same about their beliefs and it surprises me when I am consistently wrong. (Maybe that is a lesson I should learn quicker )

[DDtB]

I'm a Trade Union rep, and have been for several years.

I find that comment offensive !!!!

[tut]

Religion has been the cause of more Wars, deaths and persecutions than anything else in history, but it is not going to go away and we have to live with it as best we can.

tut

[mac]

I'm always up for a disucssion/debate/arguement call it what you will, but I really don't think a car forum is the best place to hold one regarding religion.

The BA cabin crew thread got political and a touch heated at times and that's only folk going on holiday. I'm fairly open minded and don't take exception to much but that's not to say that all who read this are liberally minded folk - we may, for all we know have staunch <insert religion here> folk who would take offense a comments made.

The issue with the virtual world in which we live is that the author of comments can not easily gauge the reaction of the reader as it's a remote converstation. If this was to happen in a real world situation you could read the situation and moderate accordingly.

Perhaps it's time for another Weegie/Edi/Abz/Killie Beers session where all the theologians can get together, break some bread and drink some wine (providing that it's allowable to their religion and cultures)

Mac

[graeme]

I'm always up for a disucssion/debate/arguement call it what you will, but I really don't think a car forum is the best place to hold one regarding religion.

The claim that "this isn't the place" is nonsense. If you're not interested, don't read. That's a thinly disguised crappy reason for the same old attempts to stop any discussion whatsoever on religion in a public forum. SE General Chat can be anything, up to and including Tut's erectile disfunction, so why is religion afforded special "no-go" privileges when it comes to open discussion?

Obviously nobody is forced to join in, or even open the thread to read it, but any attempt to stifle discussion on this topic is exactly my original point. What's so special about religion that it gets treated with kid gloves? On a Lotus forum, you might think it doesn't matter one way or the other if we discuss it, but the same reluctance that this thread has been met with (and the same ridiculous fear of causing offence) is seen in other walks of life where it *does* matter. Our schools, our parliament, our council offices, our law courts. The healthiest thing we can do is let it all out and stop persisting the automatic avoidance. Who knows, we might learn something!

Every time this topic comes up anywhere, somebody (usually a theist) immediately jumps up and claims to be offended (and this thread is no exception) and then everyone wonders if it's safe to continue. Of course it bloody is. Nobody's making personal attacks here, just airing different views for discussion. If one of those views doesn't match yours or mine, well, we can choose whether or not to be offended. If anyone personally cannot accept that there are opposing views to their own in the world (on any topic) then we usually tell them to get lost. Except when we're talking religion... then suddenly we get scared and back off. Why?

Perhaps it's time for another Weegie/Edi/Abz/Killie Beers session where all the theologians can get together, break some bread and drink some wine (providing that it's allowable to their religion and cultures)

That definitely works best. Trapist beer proves that religion is good!

[mac]

Perhaps I'm tainted by the west coast bias but when you have folk within 100miles killed because they follow a different flavour of the same religion then I really don't want to get in to discussion where comments can be mis-interpretated.

If there is a large ground swell of folk on SE who would like an area to discuss religious matters then perhaps the forum moderators could create a sub forum where this can take place. The subject on this posting is rather vauge and it could draw in folk that don't want to read the subject matter.

I for one just don't feel comfortable talking about these matters when I don't really know the folk I'm talking too.

Mac

[pete]

Perhaps I'm tainted by the west coast bias but when you have folk within 100miles killed because they follow a different flavour of the same religion then I really don't want to get in to discussion where comments can be mis-interpretated.

If there is a large ground swell of folk on SE who would like an area to discuss religious matters then perhaps the forum moderators could create a sub forum where this can take place. The subject on this posting is rather vauge and it could draw in folk that don't want to read the subject matter.

I for one just don't feel comfortable talking about these matters when I don't really know the folk I'm talking too.

Mac

Mac,

In fairness it was a comment on the lead news story of the day on the wireless. It isn't like I suddenly attacked a religion at random. And it is relevan, he made the comments because he is visiting Scotland.

And I tried to make it clear I saw no material difference between any of the Abrahamic religions - ie I wasn't just attacking Catholics or Catholicism. I'm an equal opportunity atheist.

Are you suggesting we ban religion, or any topic that might offen anyone?
And is that it? They just put their hand up and say "I'm offended" and the game is a bogey? Without any requirement to justify their offence?

And the subject is vague? No it's not.

Love and Hugs.

Pete

[mac]

Perhaps I'm tainted by the west coast bias but when you have folk within 100miles killed because they follow a different flavour of the same religion then I really don't want to get in to discussion where comments can be mis-interpretated.

If there is a large ground swell of folk on SE who would like an area to discuss religious matters then perhaps the forum moderators could create a sub forum where this can take place. The subject on this posting is rather vauge and it could draw in folk that don't want to read the subject matter.

I for one just don't feel comfortable talking about these matters when I don't really know the folk I'm talking too.

Mac

Mac,

In fairness it was a comment on the lead news story of the day on the wireless. It isn't like I suddenly attacked a religion at random. And it is relevan, he made the comments because he is visiting Scotland.

And I tried to make it clear I saw no material difference between any of the Abrahamic religions - ie I wasn't just attacking Catholics or Catholicism. I'm an equal opportunity atheist.

Are you suggesting we ban religion, or any topic that might offen anyone?
And is that it? They just put their hand up and say "I'm offended" and the game is a bogey? Without any requirement to justify their offence?

And the subject is vague? No it's not.

Love and Hugs.

Pete

Pete, with all due respect the subject title is vauge - "The Pope" this could range from anything from his "tour" to his past in the Hitler youth to his view on AIDs and contraception in Africa. Just because it's title is a religious leader there's no real way of knowing what the content was.

My view point is that there's very little to be gain from discussing religion on a car based forum. It's my view and may not be the view of others.

As a way to test the water - I'll start a new post called "Religion - Discuss" and see how many takers there are.


Mac

[pete]

Pete, with all due respect the subject title is vauge - "The Pope" this could range from anything from his "tour" to his past in the Hitler youth to his view on AIDs and contraception in Africa. Just because it's title is a religious leader there's no real way of knowing what the content was.

You realise that there is only you, I and Graeme left on this thread don't you?
And that of the 4 things that you know about hte Pope three of them are FAR more offensive than the one I picked. (I think it's OK that he was a Nazi though, the Catholic church was rather pro-Nazi. Something about "deicide" and not that much about "Love".)

My view point is that there's very little to be gain from discussing religion on a car based forum. It's my view and may not be the view of others.

It is not my view. It's the one of the most important things in the word and I feel strongly that by talking about it we are far more likely to understand each other than by burying it in special places. Anyway most of the religious forums have banned me.

As a way to test the water - I'll start a new post called "Religion - Discuss" and see how many takers there are.


Mac

Well ok but start it wth something interesting rather than "let' all talk about God". You'll sound like a Jehovah's witness.

And be consistent, new forums should now be started for any topic that may cause controversy, except tut's little blue pills.

[Brian J]

Trapist beer proves that religion is good!

Not sure that Trappists are the best example to quote in a discussion thread - not great conversationalists, one understands..........

[BigD]

It would seem from today's news that the Pope is against equality. For once I agree with him.

Seems to me we should all consider very carefully whether we should allow in positions of authourity those who believe in any of the Abrahamic gods.

Do you want a pilot who, on hearing a voice in his head telling him to crash the plane as a test of his faith, is going to do anything other than check himself into the nearest hospital?

There could be more examples, bus drivers who hear a voice telling them to mow down the queue rather than stop in front of it...

So yes, equality legislation has gone too far your Papalness. If you believe the world was created by a big beardy man in the sky who left us a big book to inspire us and live our lives by; filled with tales of incest and genocide then you shouldn't be allowed to hold positions of responsibilities.
Or driving licences for that matter.
Or bear arms.
Or know the secret of man's red fire.


Pete

I don't think any good comes out of discussions of faith on public forums.

Mac

And as a regular churchgoer I find what you say, Pete, as downright insulting.

Abrahamic Gods includes Christianity, Judaism and Islam so I don't really know where you are coming from. I haven't read what the Pope said so can't comment on that.

I'm a Trade Union rep, and have been for several years.

Should I take personal offence when someone openly criticises the TU movement?
Should I have posted on the discussion thread about the BA strike last month claiming personal insult?
I think that might have been mildly ridiculous.

My politics are as confused as any religous debate and equally faith based. No-one really knows which economic theory is the best but I believe that one way is very slightly better than another. Thing is I try to be a true skeptic, prove to me another way is better then I'll change my opinions. They are just opinions after all, based on what I've learnt in this life up until now. Teach me something new and you might tip the balance the other way.

I presume that others are the same about their beliefs and it surprises me when I am consistently wrong. (Maybe that is a lesson I should learn quicker )

I didn’t say I took personal offence just that I thought it was insulting to those who believe in a religion, however I do feel you are mixing up religion with extremism. Which is why I was looking for clarification in saying I didn't know where you were coming from?! Were you talking about A religion in particular or a part of a religion or just all religions in general?

I am certainly not here to “teach” anyone anything and am not easily offended.

Pigeonholing everyone who believes in the top three religions (50% of the worlds population belongs to one of the three) as someone “who should not be allowed in a position of authority” is just narrow minded as you are only talking about a very small proportion of extremists. But hey ho, you are entitled to think how you like. That’s the best thing about religion it’s very tolerant. Are Trade Union reps?!

And thinking about it I have no issue with it being discussed, in fact it should be. A moment of weakness on my part.

[duggiesmith]

Interesting debate.

Thank God I'm an atheist

[Edin430]

Thank God I'm an atheist

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

[RDH]

Thank God I'm an atheist

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

Define terrorism....

[neil]

Thank God I'm an atheist

Only thing I would say is I have yet to see a white catholic man flying a plane into a building or attempting to blow one up mid-air. Only one religion is the problem when it comes to terrorism. Sad but true.

Define terrorism....

terrorism - the systematic and organized use of violence and intimidation to force a government or community, etc to act in a certain way or accept certain demands.

hmmm.... obviously carpet bombing a country such as Iraq or Afghanistan wouldn't fall into this category....